The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Well, yes, we can blame Kanye for many things just not the demise of jazz.


    Apparently all it takes to be a genius these days is to claim to be one. The public is almost but not quite stupid. PT Barnum and HL Mencken pointed this out decades ago, although both seemed to believe in the intractable stupidity of the general public. Lincoln was a bit more optimistic when he noted (something along the lines of) "you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all the time but you can't fool all the people all the time." But there is enough gullibility that con men can thrive; and there are those who will continue to laud them even when the con is revealed.
    When people confuse conviction with wisdom, you get a lot of what we have now. It's inarguable.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    A domestic company is saddled with factory requirements that do not exist in other parts of the world. OSHA, EPA and of course wages will effectively kill or maim any new US attempt at a new production company.
    With respect, I cannot disagree more. I cannot grasp the logic which lets you to use 'kill or maim' to describe the interventions which every shift, every day keep American workers from being killed and maimed.

    + + +

    For example: Fifteen years ago my friends and clients at Upton Bass were importing double-basses. Fed-up with the trouble it took to bring their suppliers up to the Upton quality standard, they started setting up to build from scratch. A ton of people, including some who should have known better, told them that they would never compete with the Romanians and the Chinese on quality or price.

    They politely told those folks that they disagreed, plunged in lip-deep and imported high-skill craft factory jobs from Eastern Europe to Connecticut. Now Upton is the largest manufacturer of double-basses in the US. They have won multiple awards for skill and tone (the latter blind-tested). Their client list is a who's-who of the DB world.

    What does it take to build archtops? Skilled, organized people who really, really want to build archtops.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
    What does it take to build archtops? Skilled, organized people who really, really want to build archtops.
    Sure, if you're only looking at the supply side. The other half is the demand side: who's going to buy them and what does it take to sell sufficient archtops to make it worth going into business and not losing one's shirt? That is why the current primary builders of arch tops in America are small one person shops.

    The current ownership and management at Gibson, I am sure, took a long hard look at the bottom lines of the different products and jettisoned the ones that didn't make money. That would be archtops, because the audience to purchase them is very, very small and Gibson had to compete with the used/vintage market for sales. Since the standard belief in the guitar playing public is that old/vintage is always better than new, makers face some stiff headwinds in competition from their own past.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Gibson should always have their iconic archtop guitars available, even if at a price point that will result in very few sales. The L-5, Super 400 and ES-175 should be out there. Even if only on a "custom shop" type of basis. Why abandon any particular market to competitors?

    My prediction is that companies like Gibson and Harley-Davidson will need to contract in order to stay profitable with declining customer bases. Old guys should not cry in their beer regarding changing fashions. Life is not static. It never was.
    I read once that Chevy loses money on the Corvette every year, but they keep it going for the image. Other models make up for it. Don't know if that's true or not.

  6. #80

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    As in fly fishing gear and wood working tools, there is a great gulf between functionally adequate and something that is a true pleasure to handle and use. How much that matters depends on the individual. Of course, I would note that most who have their musical passions stirred by a great archtop, regardless of point of origin, also enjoy their Tele's so it's not just the music. It's the art in the craft.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    I read once that Chevy loses money on the Corvette every year, but they keep it going for the image. Other models make up for it. Don't know if that's true or not.
    The new mid-engine Corvette is a marvel at that price point. Incredible.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Sure, if you're only looking at the supply side. The other half is the demand side: who's going to buy them and what does it take to sell sufficient archtops to make it worth going into business and not losing one's shirt? That is why the current primary builders of arch tops in America are small one person shops.

    The current ownership and management at Gibson, I am sure, took a long hard look at the bottom lines of the different products and jettisoned the ones that didn't make money. That would be archtops, because the audience to purchase them is very, very small and Gibson had to compete with the used/vintage market for sales. Since the standard belief in the guitar playing public is that old/vintage is always better than new, makers face some stiff headwinds in competition from their own past.
    The archtop shops are small indeed. Nothing wrong with that. A guitar company needn't be Toyota or whatever.

    I'm confident that Gibson makes a profit on their archtops, given that they make them on order. L5s will never be their highest selling guitar model by any stretch of the imagination, but they don't need to be. I really don't see a problem.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    personally i blame schools throwing out music and art programs to fund sports, leaving us with a whole bunch of untrained ears. But that’s another rant)))
    yes.

  10. #84

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    I totally disagree. Kids have always formed their own musical tastes outside of school.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59
    I totally disagree. Kids have always formed their own musical tastes outside of school.
    Tastes yes, skills not so much.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Tastes yes, skills not so much.
    But don't taste and interest lead to skills? This thread is about the "death of the American archtop." Jazz has been on the decline for many decades, regardless of what schools have or haven't done. I am no defender of the disgraceful emphasis on sports--at the expense not so much of music but of academic standards!!!

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59
    I totally disagree. Kids have always formed their own musical tastes outside of school.
    I agree. My mother was a brilliant singer of classical music. She did it professionally before my father died--after, she took a day gig but still sang in a performing classical choir. At home she played classical recordings often and worked on instilling a love of that music in me. She was appalled when I started a doo wop group and then developed a love of jazz. Even more so when, after teaching myself to play on her classical guitar, I bought an electric guitar and started playing rock & roll.

    I've been hearing the argument from jazz people for 60+ years that if people were just more exposed to and taught about jazz they'd learn to like it. That might be true for some, but most people like what they like. Sadly, it's not jazz.

    As for me, I can't tolerate classical music at all.

    Danny W.

  14. #88

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    A couple of points.

    There is a lot of interest in archtops thanks to mainly Americana/roots music. I see them all the time at festivals.

    I bought a 175 in 1981 or 2 for about $900. If just adjusted for inflation, it would cost $2552. And that’s not considering the improvements in manufacturing such as CNC etc. that have occurred in the interim.

    So the amount Gibson was charging for the 175 until recently was a “prestige tax”.

    That’s OK, I get it, but there’s no reason American companies cannot produce a reasonable product at a reasonable price.

    And don’t bring up labor costs, or regulations, cause those are just a small fraction of production costs.

    Anyway, not sure there’s a real lesson here, except that I think if Gibson and other manufacturers wanted to make a “workingman’s” archtop like the 125 or 135 they could, at a reasonably low cost.

  15. #89

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    The American flattop is far from an endangered species. Martin produces 100K+ annually, and there's a host of others. The archtop market is so much smaller that economies of scale don't realize and investments in more efficient methods aren't worthwhile. Labor costs do factor in - just look at the price differential between parallel American and Far East models. European labor is even more expensive and regulated than American, and industrial guitar manufacturing went into a nosedive in the 1970s. Furch in Czechia stlll makes fine guitars, but even they terminated their archtop line years ago. No demand, no supply.
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 07-17-2020 at 06:39 AM.

  16. #90

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  17. #91

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    Some interesting ideas here. In my experience, Music finds you. However, early exposure in school systems would help accelerate that experience at an earlier age. Why are people drawn to certain genres of Music? I think it's partly cultural and partly personal. For example, if you're born in Plano, Texas, you'd be more likely, as a generalization, to hear C @ W music growing up in a community rather than Jazz, Classical, or Bossa. And, for many/most, it sets your early preferences for music. The converse can also be said that if you grow up in the suburbs of the Midwest, you're more likely to listen to Rock Music. And, in America's black communities it would be rap, R & B, and Jazz. Yes, of course, these are generalizations but they are valid for the majority of people and easily provable if you walk the streets of these areas and listen to the sounds of the neighborhood. However, aside from cultural, one's personal preferences are more complex. As a young person growing up in Chicago, most people in my neighborhood listened to R @ R/Rock. I enjoyed R @ R, but despised most Rock Music: Beetles, Beach Boys, Monkeees, Yardbirds, Pink Floyd, Buckinghams, etc. However, at an early age I was attracted to the music of Sam and Dave, James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Rufus Thomas, Jr. Walker, Booker T, etc. And, when I first discovered Chicago DJ Marty Faye and Daddio Daley on AM radio at the age of 12, I became hopelessly addicted to Jazz. I can't honestly explain this reality and have given it considerable thought over the years. But, it is real and has been a lifetime of love. So, music can be both cultural and/or personal but I agree that early exposure is important.
    Play Live! . . . Marinero

  18. #92

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    Teach your children well. Didn't somebody say that?

    I heard lots of music when I was in the womb. My parents played classical and lots of other good music all the time in our home and never stopped. I shudder to think what my tastes and exposure to the world's great music would have been had I depended on school to inform me. And there was no getting away from popular music once we kids got a little older, but that was through neighborhood and school friends, not school itself.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    Furch in Czechia stlll makes fine guitars, but even they terminated their archtop line years ago. No demand, no supply.
    In fairness, this was about American Achtops, but trends are similar. Bottom line? There is still demand here.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    In fairness, this was about American Achtops, but trends are similar. Bottom line? There is still demand here.
    In fairness, this was not about rap and music education either. My point is that the demise of the archtop has been evident for decades, and the U.S has been its last bastion. The demand is there but not enough of it and too scattered. While some posters are crying after the L-5, others suggest the return of the ES-125 or something similar for the working guitarist. For me, the Godin 5th Ave ticks most of the boxes in the Volks-Archtop category, but evidently does not satisfy the cork-sniffing archtop aficionados.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    In fairness, this was not about rap and music education either. My point is that the demise of the archtop has been evident for decades, and the U.S has been its last bastion. The demand is there but not enough of it and too scattered. While some posters are crying after the L-5, others suggest the return of the ES-125 or something similar for the working guitarist. For me, the Godin 5th Ave ticks most of the boxes in the Volks-Archtop category, but evidently does not satisfy the cork-sniffing archtop aficionados.

    Sorry, G,
    It was just too tempting to ignore! Play live! . . . Marinero

  22. #96
    Well if the fact that I love Gibson archtops makes me a cork sniffer I guess I will wear that title as a honor. I was blessed to live in a certain time. I can remember in the 1970's when you could walk into a music store and play a L5,175,S400, or a Guild AA. They were all hanging on the racks.
    Last edited by vinnyv1k; 07-17-2020 at 05:06 PM.

  23. #97
    The Death of the American Archtop-d4c6e543-3e27-4095-aa23-dfc54ece091f-jpg

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

    And don’t bring up labor costs, or regulations, cause those are just a small fraction of production costs.
    Sorry, but that is just not true. By most estimates, wages + wage-related taxes + wage-related benefits typically far outstrip other costs (such as raw materials). When these costs are 70% of the total production costs you can see why companies will spend tens of millions of dollars to relocate a factory (think Gibson moving from Kalamazoo to Nashville).

    Labor Costs are the Biggest Cost of Business

    Collings is a good example. The cost of living in Austin has increased by more than 60% over the past two years (30+% 2018 to 2018 and 2018 to 2019). You can see the impact in the cost of Collings Guitars as they struggle to pay appropriate wages to their employees trying to remain in Austin.

    Austin '''Cost To Live Comfortably''' Increase Is Highest In Nation | Austin, TX Patch

    When the Healdsburg Guitar Festival was still going, I remember seeing table after table of archtop builders in there with the flat-top luthiers. But this definitely represents the bespoke market. Hopefully, as Gibson pulls back from the edge of bankruptcy, they will be able to again offer the 175s or other hollow-body archtop at an affordable price.

  25. #99

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    [I can remember in the 1970’s when you could walk into a music store and play a L5,175,S400, or a Guild AA. They were all hanging on the racks.]

    I can remember 1996 when my wife, a scientist, did a stint with Harvard in Boston. On a weekend trip, we passed a small town in Vermont and I found a used guitar shop. Your faves were all hanging on the wall there...



  26. #100

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    Ok, just for fun let's review - "The Death of The American Archtop" (emphasis mine)


    1. Gibson has stopped making them (false)
    2. There is no demand for them (false)
    3. The only reason that Gibson is making fewer of them now than when Henry was in charge is because of low demand (false)
    4. Archtops don't make up the majority of Gibson or Fenders lines (true)
    5. Archtops, especially carved tops with extra binding and inlays etc. cost more than Stratocasters (true)
    6. The Beatles did OK without them (true)
    7. Jazz has been in decline for a long time (true)
    8. A working musician is defined as someone who earns $4,800.00 to $18.000 per year from gigs. (???)
    9. Working musicians don't have very many jazz gigs anymore (true)
    10. We don't need no stinkin' L5s, but since they exist they should be cheap, and "working musicians" should be able to easily afford one, and if they can't then no one should have one (contradictory)
    11. We don't need to worry about the financial security of working musicians in any terms beyond L5 ownership (so it would seem)
    12. It's fun to agitate class warfare using the L5 as a symbol of pretentious wealth (sadly true)


    Ok, just kidding. Have great weekend all.