The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    If they are as rare/endangered as you suggest, then our heirs should hang onto them, take care of them, and sell them right before they retire. You only need one buyer for one guitar.
    Who are they going to sell them to? Other broke Millennials? If you want to take care of your heirs leave them money, not toys.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Who are they going to sell them to? Other broke Millennials? If you want to take care of your heirs leave them money, not toys.

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    Millennials won't be broke forever unless they're slackers, and who besides a rich kid wasn't broke when they were young?

    Agreed, if you want to "take care" of your heirs leave them money.

    But, why can't they take care of themselves, and why can't we leave them both?

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Millennials won't be broke forever unless they're slackers, and who besides a rich kid wasn't broke when they were young?
    But first they have to get off your damn lawn and maybe cut their hair, dagnabbit! ;-)


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  5. #29

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    Have we managed to engage in yet another “Gibson L5s sure are expensive” thread?

    Why is it so easy to fall into?

    K, final word (from me anyway). They have never been “our lineup’s most affordable model!”. It’s a good thing they aren’t 100% hand made, you can just imagine the price...

  6. #30

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    Another American archtop builder.

  7. #31

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    Seems to me that there are more builders of great archtops than ever.

  8. #32

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    I happen to be part of the minority of guitarists who enjoys archtops. But I couldn't care less about Gibson or Guild stopping production. There are plenty of great used archtops out there for those who want them and lots of options for new guitars if you must have one.

    If there was enough demand for Gibson to be making new jazz guitars, and they could do it profitably, they would! A new L5 is a luxury item in low demand and is going to be priced accordingly.

    I would hardly call the current situation "the death of the American archtop."

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukmanohnz
    Another American archtop builder.
    OK, one more post (sorry). Those are beautiful! And prices start at $9K.

    Ya get what ya pay for, folks.

  10. #34

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    I preffer japanese archtops so I don’t see the problem here

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan

    20.1% Pop
    14.0% Rock
    9.4% R&B
    8.7% Country
    3.2% Religious
    2.7% Stage & Screen
    1.5% World
    1.1% Jazz
    This seems to add to about 60%

  12. #36

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    adds up to 89.4% (you culled categories)

  13. #37

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    60.7 Categories were culled because I didn't think they were very guitar oriented, or electric guitar oriented.

    In other words, it seemed to suggest that because jazz was only 1.1% that the archtop market must be likewise tiny, although not explicitly stated.

    What I am saying is, the creative artists who make that music have money, and they like guitars. They buy whatever they want, even if they don't always use it on stage or in the studio.

    Clapton had archtops, CSN&Y had Gibson archtops, country artists like nice guitars including archtops.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    60.7 Categories were culled because I didn't think they were very guitar oriented, or electric guitar oriented.

    In other words, it seemed to suggest that because jazz was only 1.1% that the archtop market must be likewise tiny, although not explicitly stated.

    What I am saying is, the creative artists who make that music have money, and they like guitars. They buy whatever they want, even if they don't always use it on stage or in the studio.

    Clapton had archtops, CSN&Y had Gibson archtops, country artists like nice guitars including archtops.
    Guys used to buy Harleys. Not so much anymore. Same trend.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

    Share of total music album consumption by genre (US Data, 2018)

    21.7% Hip-Hop/Rap
    20.1% Pop
    14.0% Rock
    9.4% R&B
    8.7% Country
    3.9% EDM
    3.2% Religious
    2.7% Stage & Screen
    1.5% World
    1.1% Jazz
    1.0% Reggae
    1.0% Classical
    0.6% Children’s
    0.5% New age
    What?? New age is the lowest?? I live in a bubble.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59
    Guys used to buy Harleys. Not so much anymore. Same trend.
    interesting point. Not sure it’s true. I kinda think it’s not, but interesting point

    lots of things are changing.

    I remain confident that humans will continue to love music. I’m not as certain that they will continue to love the kind of crap that we Americans have produced over the last few decades. I realize that I could be wrong, but hope I’m not. Who knows, we could have another Renaissance.

  17. #41

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    Another American builder- forum member Matt Cushman, whose prices are way reasonable. I've had mine for 14 years (!), play it every day. It only goes in the case to or from somewhere to play, otherwise it is always handy to pick up and play something.

  18. #42

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    "Guys used to buy Harleys. Not so much anymore."

    Maybe not the same guys but others are buying/renting electric scooters like crazy. Times are a-changing.

    BTW, what I said in a previous post about choosing between a Bravo and an ES-175 for the occasional gig wasn't the whole truth. In most cases, an Ibanez AFJ-91 gets the job. The point is, the quality of factory-made archtops from Korea and China has been excellent for the price for two decades at least. Designs, brands and QC are governed by American or Japanese parent companies.

    In the interesting revenue calculation in a previous post, a gig was valued at $ 250. My contacts in NY say that a typical jazz club gig is $ 100, even $ 50 if it's in the low-attendance wee hours. Same story from a saxophonist/cab driver in Berlin. For many musicians, teaching is the daytime job that keeps them afloat. Needless to say, in Covid times, these people have other things to worry about than the price of an L-5.

  19. #43
    [QUOTE=Marty Grass;1047535]
    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

    Share of total music album consumption by genre (US Data, 2018)

    21.7% Hip-Hop/Rap
    20.1% Pop
    14.0% Rock
    9.4% R&B
    8.7% Country
    3.9% EDM
    3.2% Religious
    2.7% Stage & Screen
    1.5% World
    1.1% Jazz
    1.0% Reggae
    1.0% Classical
    0.6% Children’s
    0.5% New age

    What?? New age is the lowest?? I live in a bubble.
    Hey at least Jazz is .1% higher than Reggae!

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    interesting point. Not sure it’s true. I kinda think it’s not, but interesting point

    lots of things are changing.

    I remain confident that humans will continue to love music. I’m not as certain that they will continue to love the kind of crap that we Americans have produced over the last few decades. I realize that I could be wrong, but hope I’m not. Who knows, we could have another Renaissance.
    Agree people will love music.
    Hope the music improves, but it's been a long decline.
    Doubt the future will include archtops in a big way.

  21. #45

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    I hate to say this, but I think we're going to have to keep looking to the far east for affordable archtops. It's unfortunate, but true. So why can't a domestic company do something like Eastman, etc? I'm no economist, so I have no knowledge about wages, etc.

  22. #46

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    Not everyone in the world thinks guaranteeing wages and worker safety is as important as it is in the USofA. A domestic company is saddled with factory requirements that do not exist in other parts of the world. OSHA, EPA and of course wages will effectively kill or maim any new US attempt at a new production company.
    Rant starts now....
    Not sure why Ibanez gets so little notice here but the Ibanez archtops made in Japan models, of which I have both, are very well made, and the workmanship on them is consistently excellent. Way under the prices being discussed. And they play nice and sound good. (Yea I have the zealotry of a convert, but I did keep my L5.)

    But we have another problem here. The “American Standards” (Rodgers, Porter et al) repertoire died off long ago in the general public. Those were compact listenable tunes the audience knew and could identify with. (Note how the Joe Pass standards albums kept him earning ‘Best Jazz Guitarist’ for years.) Sure we can, and Joe did too, throw in the occasional “real” jazz piece but seriously the general listening public isn’t all that keen on Giant Steps. With the noted shrinking of attention spans, the continuous improvisation on a couple of modes isn’t catching to the ears of a ‘civilian’. They want to tap their toes to the music. We need as practicing musicians to be honest with ourselves about playing what the audience wants and understands. As Tal Farlow said: “we’re playing to the Satin Doll set”. Which is dying off.

    So we are in the position of playing an instrument with a narrow range of use to a declining base of interested listeners. And, having to either play standards that few under 40 ever heard, or playing “Real” jazz stuff that has now mostly been heard by jazz students. The archtop market, American or not, is dying because of those factors. Do you really think the vulture capitalists now at Gibson would have essentially killed the line if they thought there was money to be made? On the number one lusted-after brand of archtop? Products losing money is not how to sell a company at a profit, and KKR people buy companies to sell at a profit.

    Personally I blame schools throwing out music and art programs to fund sports, leaving us with a whole bunch of untrained ears. But that’s another rant)))

  23. #47

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    As much as I love the sounds associated with archtops, and they sure are beautiful as well, perhaps the genre also moved to a place where other kinds of guitars are more useful. The diversity of instruments is certainly greater than ever, and Fenders seem to be gaining ground.

    I can see why a touring musician would rather bring a Fender plank with him on the road.

  24. #48

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    At NAMM, two Gibson reps promised the return of the 175 in a year or two. Hope they haven't been fired by now.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    At NAMM, two Gibson reps promised the return of the 175 in a year or two. Hope they haven't been fired by now.
    Gibson should always have their iconic archtop guitars available, even if at a price point that will result in very few sales. The L-5, Super 400 and ES-175 should be out there. Even if only on a "custom shop" type of basis. Why abandon any particular market to competitors?

    My prediction is that companies like Gibson and Harley-Davidson will need to contract in order to stay profitable with declining customer bases. Old guys should not cry in their beer regarding changing fashions. Life is not static. It never was.

  26. #50

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    I respectfully disagree with the pessimistic, and depressing prospect of Jazz dying out
    jointly with the gloomy outlook of the same applying to the Archtop Guitar. Jazz has
    always been niche music and up and down in popularity as new genres come and go.
    But we are talking about an Art Form, taking years to appreciate for some ,and learning
    how to play this most difficult of music forms with any degree of dexterity and finesse.
    Gifted musicians may find it relatively easy to absorb and play, but for the man in the street
    not quite so. Someone suggested that the Great American Songbook is passe' now.
    That is not the case at all, most great players employ the "Standards " to great effect.,
    improvising and embellishing these songs to renew them for the listener. Pop Music
    can induce a soporific state, which is fine for insomnia.