The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Ok, just for fun let's review - "The Death of The American Archtop" (emphasis mine)


    1. Gibson has stopped making them (false)
    2. There is no demand for them (false)
    3. The only reason that Gibson is making fewer of them now than when Henry was in charge is because of low demand (false)
    4. Archtops don't make up the majority of Gibson or Fenders lines (true)
    5. Archtops, especially carved tops with extra binding and inlays etc. cost more than Stratocasters (true)
    6. The Beatles did OK without them (true)
    7. Jazz has been in decline for a long time (true)
    8. A working musician is defined as someone who earns $4,800.00 to $18.000 per year from gigs. (???)
    9. Working musicians don't have very many jazz gigs anymore (true)
    10. We don't need no stinkin' L5s, but since they exist they should be cheap, and "working musicians" should be able to easily afford one, and if they can't then no one should have one (contradictory)
    11. We don't need to worry about the financial security of working musicians in any terms beyond L5 ownership (so it would seem)
    12. It's fun to agitate class warfare using the L5 as a symbol of pretentious wealth (sadly true)


    Ok, just kidding. Have great weekend all.
    Lol!

    I dug that.

    #bring backES125

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    "A working musician is defined as someone who earns $4,800.00 to $18.000 per year from gigs. (???)" GTRman


    Classic! Play live! . . . Marinero

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "A working musician is defined as someone who earns $4,800.00 to $18.000 per year from gigs. (???)" GTRman


    Classic! Play live! . . . Marinero
    I meant $4,800 to $18,000. Put a decimal in the wrong place.

    So,

    One (1) $100.00 gig per week, for 48 weeks is minimum?
    Three to four (3-4) such gigs a week, for 48 weeks is maximum?

    I don't know, you guys tell me. At any rate, that certainly won't fund too many L5s. Another primary job (not secondary) would be needed, or one might have to live with their parents (or have a wife who earns a nice living). Something like that.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 07-18-2020 at 09:14 AM.

  5. #104

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    Given that list of genres, archtop-ey guitars are not only used in jazz. I've seen plenty of such guitars in R&B, country, blues etc. But they are generally not carved, it's gonna be some Gibson ES that gives some of that tone but doesn't feedback on stage.

    This goes for jazzers too. Rozenwinkel, Sco, Metheny, Benson... that's not carved tops they are using on stage.

    I recently got my first carved archtop, a Heritage Eagle, and as a non-brainwashed newcomer I can make the following observations.

    1. The acoustic tone is not that great, I like my Lowden flattop way more (not just the Heritage, my teacher has a vintage carved Epi that's supposed to be da shiznit and it sounds comparable). I can see how that tone is useful in a historical big band setting, but that's a very specific narrow situation.
    2. The electric tone doesn't sound like the acoustic tone much. It's like having two guitars. I can get a really nice blended tone if I sit at the right spot in front of the amp and set the volume right. But that's a lot of work and how do you get it right every time on different stages?
    3. Lots of little irritating details. I have to keep my fingers off the pickguard because it's a thin piece of wood that sounds "tap tap" when my fingers brush across it. The part of the strings between bridge and tailpiece ring out sympathetically with certain notes, I'm gonna have to put some dampener there. The cable inside the body rattles sometimes.
    4. Feedback at stage volumes.
    5. I can get a good jazz tone with my tele.

    So a carved archtop is not a very practical instrument. Although some players have really been able to work magic with these, others stuff a full mattress of cotton into them, tape over the f-holes and whatnot. I don't think this is a symptom of jazz dying out. It's a miracle that carved archtops still have people willing to put up with these issues. But maybe those people mostly play in home studios?

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    I meant $4,800 to $18,000. Put a decimal in the wrong place.

    So,

    One (1) $100.00 gig per week, for 48 weeks is minimum?
    Three to four (3-4) such gigs a week, for 48 weeks is maximum?

    I don't know, you guys tell me. At any rate, that certainly won't fund too many L5s. Another primary job (not secondary) would be needed, or one might have to live with their parents (or have a wife that earns a nice living). Something like that.
    Last year an article was posted nationally that estimated the average professional musician in the USA made 30K

    This sounds about right. And the guys/gals who make around that much do so with a combination of gigs and teaching. Not enough bread to survive in most areas of the USA unless you have a wife/significant other bringing in as much or more.

    That is enough bread for a Godin Kingpin or Korean DA. That said, an L-5 amortized over a 30 year career might be doable if a cat wanted an L-5 bad enough.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Given that list of genres, archtop-ey guitars are not only used in jazz. I've seen plenty of such guitars in R&B, country, blues etc. But they are generally not carved, it's gonna be some Gibson ES that gives some of that tone but doesn't feedback on stage.

    This goes for jazzers too. Rozenwinkel, Sco, Metheny, Benson... that's not carved tops they are using on stage.

    I recently got my first carved archtop, a Heritage Eagle, and as a non-brainwashed newcomer I can make the following observations.

    1. The acoustic tone is not that great, I like my Lowden flattop way more (not just the Heritage, my teacher has a vintage carved Epi that's supposed to be da shiznit and it sounds comparable). I can see how that tone is useful in a historical big band setting, but that's a very specific narrow situation.
    2. The electric tone doesn't sound like the acoustic tone much. It's like having two guitars. I can get a really nice blended tone if I sit at the right spot in front of the amp and set the volume right. But that's a lot of work and how do you get it right every time on different stages?
    3. Lots of little irritating details. I have to keep my fingers off the pickguard because it's a thin piece of wood that sounds "tap tap" when my fingers brush across it. The part of the strings between bridge and tailpiece ring out sympathetically with certain notes, I'm gonna have to put some dampener there. The cable inside the body rattles sometimes.
    4. Feedback at stage volumes.
    5. I can get a good jazz tone with my tele.

    So a carved archtop is not a very practical instrument. Although some players have really been able to work magic with these, others stuff a full mattress of cotton into them, tape over the f-holes and whatnot. I don't think this is a symptom of jazz dying out. It's a miracle that carved archtops still have people willing to put up with these issues. But maybe those people mostly play in home studios?
    Your enumerated description would look great as an ad to NOT sell a guitar. LOL!

    I don't disagree with your points, but I enjoy the subtle differences between a carved vs. laminate archtop amplified or not. They're just different animals.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Last year an article was posted nationally that estimated the average professional musician in the USA made 30K

    This sounds about right. And the guys/gals who make around that much do so with a combination of gigs and teaching. Not enough bread to survive in most areas of the USA unless you have a wife/significant other bringing in as much or more.

    That is enough bread for a Godin Kingpin or Korean DA. That said, an L-5 amortized over a 30 year career might be doable if a cat wanted an L-5 bad enough.
    Thanks. I wonder if big shot stars are included in that "professional musician" average. They probably shouldn't be. And so teaching students hides the gig numbers, which are probably abysmal? These days the teaching numbers are what keeps the lights on, or at least flickering?

    Honestly, these are poverty numbers for anyone but the young, single, and living in an affordable location. The problem is, the more affordable the location, the fewer the gigs and students, most likely.

    That's why I made a subtle point that L5 pricing is the least of their concerns, or should be. Find something else, anything else.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    Given that list of genres, archtop-ey guitars are not only used in jazz. I've seen plenty of such guitars in R&B, country, blues etc. But they are generally not carved, it's gonna be some Gibson ES that gives some of that tone but doesn't feedback on stage.

    This goes for jazzers too. Rozenwinkel, Sco, Metheny, Benson... that's not carved tops they are using on stage.

    I recently got my first carved archtop, a Heritage Eagle, and as a non-brainwashed newcomer I can make the following observations.

    1. The acoustic tone is not that great, I like my Lowden flattop way more (not just the Heritage, my teacher has a vintage carved Epi that's supposed to be da shiznit and it sounds comparable). I can see how that tone is useful in a historical big band setting, but that's a very specific narrow situation.
    2. The electric tone doesn't sound like the acoustic tone much. It's like having two guitars. I can get a really nice blended tone if I sit at the right spot in front of the amp and set the volume right. But that's a lot of work and how do you get it right every time on different stages?
    3. Lots of little irritating details. I have to keep my fingers off the pickguard because it's a thin piece of wood that sounds "tap tap" when my fingers brush across it. The part of the strings between bridge and tailpiece ring out sympathetically with certain notes, I'm gonna have to put some dampener there. The cable inside the body rattles sometimes.
    4. Feedback at stage volumes.
    5. I can get a good jazz tone with my tele.

    So a carved archtop is not a very practical instrument. Although some players have really been able to work magic with these, others stuff a full mattress of cotton into them, tape over the f-holes and whatnot. I don't think this is a symptom of jazz dying out. It's a miracle that carved archtops still have people willing to put up with these issues. But maybe those people mostly play in home studios?
    I agree that other styles use them. (and again, stars buy the special ones for the house). And it's a bummer that you're having such a bad experience with your Heritage. Some of those things are probably fixable.

    "Stage volumes" these days means darned loud, right? Yeah, carved tops may have a problem there, although McLaughlin used a Johnny Smith on stage at very loud volumes throughout the 1990s.

    The pick guard should not go "tap" when you "brush" it, but it should go tap when you tap it. I notice that too. The solution is to play with "quieter" more controlled hands.

    An F-hole guitar with a pickup is not going to compete with a flat top (or archtop) with a nice oval or round hole guitar for unplugged acoustic tone, ever. On the other hand those round hole guitars sound bad when amplified, and feed back even more so. Each has it's intended use.

    Carved tops have their place, just like all guitars. A small jazz ensemble in a relatively small space at reasonable volumes is the target.
    Last edited by GTRMan; 07-18-2020 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    In fairness, this was not about rap and music education either. My point is that the demise of the archtop has been evident for decades, and the U.S has been its last bastion. The demand is there but not enough of it and too scattered. While some posters are crying after the L-5, others suggest the return of the ES-125 or something similar for the working guitarist. For me, the Godin 5th Ave ticks most of the boxes in the Volks-Archtop category, but evidently does not satisfy the cork-sniffing archtop aficionados.
    Good for you if you like the Godin 5th Ave. I didn't. I have a 1966 es-125, a low-end guitar in the Gibson line. I like it a lot. Does that make me a cork-sniffer if I like something that costs more than yours did?

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    ...I recently got my first carved archtop, a Heritage Eagle, and as a non-brainwashed newcomer I can make the following observations. ...
    Partial information is not useful. Is this an all-mahogany Eagle with a floating pickup? Or some other configuration?

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    ...An F-hole guitar with a pickup is not going to compete with a flat top with a nice oval or round hole guitar for unplugged acoustic tone, ever. ...
    Please be specific. Do you specifically mean a pickup (or pickups) mounted to the top of the guitar, with a hole (or holes) cut into the top to accommodate the pickup (or pickups)? Do you include archtop guitars with floating pickups?
    Last edited by Hammertone; 07-17-2020 at 11:54 PM.

  12. #111

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    Hmm.. Good archtops are available across the price and quality spectrum. Most any guitar player can have one. And if you want to spend $10K and something special, that's available from several sources. So what's the issue?

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59
    Good for you if you like the Godin 5th Ave. I didn't. I have a 1966 es-125, a low-end guitar in the Gibson line. I like it a lot. Does that make me a cork-sniffer if I like something that costs more than yours did?
    No, it does not. In my vocabulary, cork-sniffers refer to the wealthy collectors who in the early 2000s drove up the prices of vintage D'A's, Strombergs and L-5's. I'm sure your ES-125 is a fine guitar and, being properly aged, better than the Godin 5th Avenue. However, this contemporary, affordable copy proves that it's possible to profitably manufacture a laminated, no-frills archtop in North America and sell it for under $ 1,000.

    In my post I did not claim that I own or particularly like the 5th Avenue (I do and I don't). Many posters seem to like it, however. This thread amply proves that Gibson is part of Americana and, for many, an emotional issue. Sorry if I have hurt somebody. I have owned four samples of ES-175, two of which were lemons and the third one ok. The current 2014 ES-175 1959 VOS is my No.1 guitar, while there's nothing wrong with my 2007 Benedetto Bravo either. Both would benefit from more - and especially better - playing.

  14. #113

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    damned cork-sniffers:
    Attached Images Attached Images The Death of the American Archtop-nugent1-jpg The Death of the American Archtop-nugent3-jpg 

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Partial information is not useful. Is this an all-mahogany Eagle with a floating pickup? Or some other configuration?
    This is an all solid mahogany Heritage Eagle with a Zoller floating pickup and Thomastik 12 gauge flats.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with this guitar, I'm under the impression that it does what it's supposed to do. Which is kinda my point.

  16. #115

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    " I have to keep my fingers off the pickguard because it's a thin piece of wood that sounds "tap tap" when my fingers brush across it." Frank


    Hi, F,
    I use a neatly folded piece of paper towel under the unsupported section of the pickguard (mine:closest to the strings aft) which works perfectly and cannot be seen. Play live! Marinero

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    No, it does not. In my vocabulary, cork-sniffers refer to the wealthy collectors who in the early 2000s drove up the prices of vintage D'A's, Strombergs and L-5's. I'm sure your ES-125 is a fine guitar and, being properly aged, better than the Godin 5th Avenue. However, this contemporary, affordable copy proves that it's possible to profitably manufacture a laminated, no-frills archtop in North America and sell it for under $ 1,000.

    In my post I did not claim that I own or particularly like the 5th Avenue (I do and I don't). Many posters seem to like it, however. This thread amply proves that Gibson is part of Americana and, for many, an emotional issue. Sorry if I have hurt somebody. I have owned four samples of ES-175, two of which were lemons and the third one ok. The current 2014 ES-175 1959 VOS is my No.1 guitar, while there's nothing wrong with my 2007 Benedetto Bravo either. Both would benefit from more - and especially better - playing.
    First we complain that the American archtop is "dead" and there is no demand, then it's "wealhy" buyers driving up the prices (with demand, that is).

    That's contradictory, no?

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Partial information is not useful. Is this an all-mahogany Eagle with a floating pickup? Or some other configuration?


    Please be specific. Do you specifically mean a pickup (or pickups) mounted to the top of the guitar, with a hole (or holes) cut into the top to accommodate the pickup (or pickups)? Do you include archtop guitars with floating pickups?
    Yeah either.

    There's these:
    Cremona™ Guitar _ Benedetto Guitars.pdf

    And then there's these.
    Sinfonietta™ Guitar _ Sinfonietta™ Archtop Jazz Guitar _ Benedetto Guitars.pdf

    The Death of the American Archtop-hotclub_hexaphone_711x563-jpg

    Why go to the trouble of making the second, more expensive type if the first covers everything (tone and volume) and the second one only tone?

  19. #118

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    I have an honest question: when playing an electronic instrument where much of its sound, if not all, can be mixed/tweaked on an amplifier, can one really tell the difference between a $1,000. laminate archtop and a solid wood instrument that sells for $10,000? And, how much is there in the mystique of the instrument and its rarity/cost that may potentially bend the ears of its owner? For example, Chris Whiteman, a forum member, plays an ES125 that sounds as good as any L5 I've heard on this forum. My original '66 ES125TC --also an entry level Gibson ,in a blindfold test, would be difficult to distinguish from the solid wood archtops I've heard on this forum. How much is real . . . and how much is imagined? This, however, cannot be said about Classical/Flamenco solid wood acoustic guitars where there is a real quantifiable difference. Play live! . . . Marinero

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    I have an honest question: when playing an electronic instrument where much of its sound, if not all, can be mixed/tweaked on an amplifier, can one really tell the difference between a $1,000. laminate archtop and a solid wood instrument that sells for $10,000? And, how much is there in the mystique of the instrument and its rarity/cost that may potentially bend the ears of its owner? For example, Chris Whiteman, a forum member, plays an ES125 that sounds as good as any L5 I've heard on this forum. My original '66 ES125TC --also an entry level Gibson ,in a blindfold test, would be difficult to distinguish from the solid wood archtops I've heard on this forum. How much is real . . . and how much is imagined? This, however, cannot be said about Classical/Flamenco solid wood acoustic guitars where there is a real quantifiable difference. Play live! . . . Marinero
    Great point about Chris Whiteman! Hes been recording/YouTube a ton with his ES-125T and it sounds SO good to me and I guess it does to him as well because he owns some very nice guitars and that one has been getting most of the playing time....at least in his videos.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    I have an honest question: when playing an electronic instrument where much of its sound, if not all, can be mixed/tweaked on an amplifier, can one really tell the difference between a $1,000. laminate archtop and a solid wood instrument that sells for $10,000? . . Marinero

    Yep. The lam top has that thunk. The carved top not so much. Some prefer the former so I don't think one should think of it as the "cost" of sound, it's the characteristics.

  22. #121

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    "6. The Beatles did OK without them (true)"

    Even if you were just kidding above, GTRMan, one could point out in reference to #6 that many of the Beatles' later songs were produced on Epi Casinos, which, though thin-lines, are hollow-body archtops. Early on, George Harrison used Gretsch archtops.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Another American builder- forum member Matt Cushman, whose prices are way reasonable. I've had mine for 14 years (!), play it every day. It only goes in the case to or from somewhere to play, otherwise it is always handy to pick up and play something.
    I just had a peek at the site and he has a beautiful arch top for sale 3.5k.

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    I recently got my first carved archtop, a Heritage Eagle, and as a non-brainwashed newcomer I can make the following observations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Partial information is not useful. Is this an all-mahogany Eagle with a floating pickup? Or some other configuration?
    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    This is an all solid mahogany Heritage Eagle with a Zoller floating pickup and Thomastik 12 gauge flats. I don't think there is anything wrong with this guitar, I'm under the impression that it does what it's supposed to do. Which is kinda my point.
    Thanks for the clarification. I can better understand your opinion, which is based on a sample of one - your guitar. More to come.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    " Hi, F,
    I use a neatly folded piece of paper towel under the unsupported section of the pickguard (mine:closest to the strings aft) which works perfectly and cannot be seen. Play live! Marinero
    Thanks! After I wrote that, I realized that what the heck, I’ll just remove the thing, it’s just a holder for the volume pot. Just have to figure out where to put the volume...

  26. #125

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    Very few pro guitarists own any real carved Archtops to make their living with. And even the few usually use laminate builds like John Pizzarelli, Julian Lage.

    Like I said before for me, I'm just sad that the music itself that was made with these instruments is essentially dead. And that aside from the very few situations, people aren't interested in well composed music.

    It really has become more of a Folk minimal harmony based form, where the lyrics are first and foremost.
    And again not talking about the one off newer Jazz guys. I'm referring to to public's taste in music.