Dumb Questions on Playing a Gibson ES-175

[jonh]

I don’t know if this helps but here is the numbers of the tops of my three current f-hole guitars:
ES-175 VOS 1959 (2012) 4,95 mm – 2,6 kg
ES-175 VOS 1954 (2015) 5,83 mm – 3,06 kg
and for comparison:
ES-275 (P90s) 5,23 mm.

Thanks, Herbie. Here are the results in order of thickness, with inches added. I'm mildly surprised at the range of thicknesses.
ES-125TD (1961): 4,06mm - 0.160 in - 5/32 in
ES-175 VOS 1959 (2012): 4,95 mm - 0.195 in - 3/16 in
ES-275 (P90s): 5,23 mm - 0.206 in - 13/64 in
Epi Joe Pass (2003, Peerless): 5,59 mm - 0.220 in - 7/32 in
ES-175 VOS 1954 (2015): 5,82 mm - 0.229 in - 15/64 in
ES-775 (1991): 6,35 mm - 0.250 in - 1/4 in

[citizenk74]

Also pick is an important factor for the compression. Some picks just make ES 175's (and other guitars) sound compressed even when picked lightly, others give you more "headroom".

For example, Dunlop Jazztone picks sound more compressed to me. The regular red Jazz III's sound more open. Although out of the package, the unbevelled edges have molding marks that can make it sound thin. Some sandpaper and polishing work clears that nicely.

Agree about the Jazztones. Love 'em for that reason. I find the black Jazz IIs, worn in, to be the perfect tone producer for my '04 Es-175.

[KirkP]

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t think you mentioned your string gauge. If your strings are lighter than they could be, try bumping them up. It’s an alternative to raising the action.

[Tal_175]

This "compressed" effect depends on the amount of vibrating string mass at any given point. Lower strings especially when played on lower frets get the most acoustic response from guitars. Higher strings, especially on high frets get the most compressed, stringy sounds. In fact, even on high end acoustic guitars, and even on a low E string anything above the 12th fret will get limited acoustic response and start sounding stringy and compressed.

It's really the relationship between the vibrating string mass and the resonance of the guitar. ES 175's with laminated maple tops almost act like solid bodies when you play on the high E and B strings especially if the string gauge is not very heavy. But this timbre change from warm acoustic thunk on the low strings to compressed and stringy cut on the high strings is one of charms of this guitar.

[Doctor Jeff]

Not much to add to the above discussion, except I think it's fairly well established that Joe Pass's guitar was mic'd and plugged into the amp. Whether the final recording was a "mistake" or not has not been established.

In a prior discussion it was mentioned that Norman Granz was the producer and Dennis Sands the engineer. Sands was a very well-known sound engineer for some of the most successful films in history. This may have been his first big recording though. Hard to believe a studio like that could "screw up" and lose the amp sound.

Joe Pass Virtuoso Guitar Setup (jazzguitar.be)

I don't think you're hearing a pure acoustic tone on the album because the 175 is just so quiet acoustically. I imagine they were trying to blend the tones, maybe in a way that was trendy at the time or as kind of an experiment. Apparently Joe never even listened to his recordings after he played cause he was "not interested in hearing his own mistakes" LOL.

In any event, an interesting tone that intrigued me at the time, because it did sound like something organic and not just plugged into an engineer's box and fiddled with ad infinitum.

As far as Jim Hall, I really like his earlier recordings where I think he does have a lot more of the thunk. I like to be able to make out all the notes when someone's playing.

[6v6ster]

Back to the original question, plywood guitars compress a LOT more than solid carved wood.

for example, if you went from playing a 175 for a while and suddenly tried a solid wood L5ces, you’d feel like you were going to blow your speakers out until you adjusted your playing.

[PDeville]

Jon,

My experience with the 775 is that it is a heavier build than a 175 and while all 175s made past say 1970 are somewhat dead acoustically, the 775 is an extremely dead guitar in that respect. If you had a 59 reissue, it would behave more like your vintage Gibson electric archtop.


Hope that helps....

Yes, it would, SS. I have one and it has a pretty decent acoustic sound (mine has one pickup).
My 59 reissue ES175 weigh 5lbs 10oz, has a large D shaped neck, yet it is perfectly balanced (not neck heavy). It would be much more like the early 60s ES125 mentioned here. I had a '62 ES125 T for a while and it was very light as well.

[m_d]

As I understand, this is typical of modern ES-175s... which is why I personally didn't want one. Many will disagree but I don't understand the point or the concept of a full hollow guitar that doesn't ring and have dynamics acoustically, I'd rather play a semi-hollow or electric in that case. I find having to play with an amp all the time to be a drag. As I had learned on this forum, old ES-175s and ES-125s weren't like this, more lightly built, they are almost a different guitar. So I got an ES-125 replica - being reluctant to buy an old guitar - instead, the Dupont Saint-Louis. It sounds beautiful and is loud enough acoustically even with flatwounds and super sensitive and responsive to picking dynamics, as I had hoped and expected.

[Herbie]

As I understand, this is typical of modern ES-175s... which is why I personally didn't want one. Many will disagree but I don't understand the point or the concept of a full hollow guitar that doesn't ring and have dynamics acoustically, I'd rather play a semi-hollow or electric in that case. I find having to play with an amp all the time to be a drag. As I had learned on this forum, old ES-175s and ES-125s weren't like this, more lightly built, they are almost a different guitar. So I got an ES-125 replica - being reluctant to buy an old guitar - instead, the Dupont Saint-Louis. It sounds beautiful and is loud enough acoustically even with flatwounds and super sensitive and responsive to picking dynamics, as I had hoped and expected.

Interesting! I had never heard about Dupont Saint-Louis before. Has them been built for long?

There is one for sale in Reverb, not a bad price. A bit like ES-125s for fifteen years ago!

I found only one clip in YouTube with this guitar – but the playing is not quite jazzy. But the guitar is beautiful!

[m_d]

Yeah, it's unfortunate that good demos of Dupont guitars are few and far between.
Look for a couple of clips on Youtube featuring James Carter, Romane and his son Pierre Manetti. The recording is likely phone made but Romane's performance gives a good overview of how lively the Saint-Louis sounds, amplified in this case. His model is a natural finish, I like how it looks.

The Saint-Louis started I think about 15 years ago. Dupont made his reputation building replicas of Selmers at a time when nobody was interested, and branched off from there. Selmers had laminate backs and I guess that know-how transferred to the Saint-Louis, the Belleville, the Bebop and a number of laminate models he makes. He also makes the Capitol (ES-335 type) for the German brand Maybach.

Given his Django replicas are known world-wide, I thought that was a good sign that his laminates would be resonant. But I asked him directly before ordering. So there is that background of being an acoustic builder initially and the lutherie feels very traditional - which I love, the guitar almost plays itself. People looking for a contemporary ES-175 and modern types of laminates might be disappointed though. As I understand, "American" jazz guitars are fairly marginal in Dupont's output, and he's fairly busy, so he doesn't advertise much. The website is old, some pictures could be better (compared to what his guitars, at least mine, look like in reality). Build time was close to nine months. They were great to deal with. Other options are possible, I think, besides those listed, say if you wanted a solid top, two pickups, a bigsby, specific sunburst, etc.

[Fat Fingers]

Dang that's pretty, one of these days I'll find one for sale I hope!

[Herbie]

Yeah, it's unfortunate that good demos of Dupont guitars are few and far between.
Look for a couple of clips on Youtube featuring James Carter, Romane and his son Pierre Manetti. The recording is likely phone made but Romane's performance gives a good overview of how lively the Saint-Louis sounds, amplified in this case. His model is a natural finish, I like how it looks.

The Saint-Louis started I think about 15 years ago. Dupont made his reputation building replicas of Selmers at a time when nobody was interested, and branched off from there. Selmers had laminate backs and I guess that know-how transferred to the Saint-Louis, the Belleville, the Bebop and a number of laminate models he makes. He also makes the Capitol (ES-335 type) for the German brand Maybach.

Given his Django replicas are known world-wide, I thought that was a good sign that his laminates would be resonant. But I asked him directly before ordering. So there is that background of being an acoustic builder initially and the lutherie feels very traditional - which I love, the guitar almost plays itself. People looking for a contemporary ES-175 and modern types of laminates might be disappointed though. As I understand, "American" jazz guitars are fairly marginal in Dupont's output, and he's fairly busy, so he doesn't advertise much. The website is old, some pictures could be better (compared to what his guitars, at least mine, look like in reality). Build time was close to nine months. They were great to deal with. Other options are possible, I think, besides those listed, say if you wanted a solid top, two pickups, a bigsby, specific sunburst, etc.

Nine months is not bad, I have been hunting some gear near a decade…

Can I ask was the price ordered from the maker in the same scale as this Reverb offering:

Dupont Saint Louis | Guitars Doktor | Reverb

[m_d]

That offering was already there a year ago, I think they dropped the price. I wanted a wooden bridge and something more personal. The base price (in matte finish as in that listing) is near double and I paid around 400 over that with my options. I think it's a good price, in the same range as Japanese offerings of comparable quality, although price didn't really matter for that particular purchase.

[Jonathan0996]

Others may disagree, but I have found that a light touch works best as the default technique with those guitars. If you play lightly most of the time you're emphases will be more noticible.

[rpjazzguitar]

Old thread, but I'd add this.

How hard you pick changes the tone, as noted in an earlier post.

I tend to get excited and want to play louder and more intensely. So, I pick harder and my tone may die.

My solution (compromise?) is to play with a volume pedal and ride it constantly. When my tone begins to thin out, it's a reminder to add volume with the pedal and back off the pick pressure.

It becomes an effect. If you want, say, to dig in with a funk rhythm, you strum relatively hard while backing off the volume.

If you want a full gentle sound at higher volume, it's there.

Requires playing sitting down, or making a stool like Tal Farlow's. Or, standing uncomfortably (or, so it seems to me).

[Epistrophy]

Raise the action. As high as you are comfy with. That’s digging in. Try 3mm. And use medium pick.