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Hello all
I hope someone would like to give their opinion on this
I'm looking to buy a new guitar, a thing I haven't done since I was very young, so I'm really nervous about doing the wrong thing.
I'm interested in modern type guitars like Victor Baker, Moffa etc. And I am currently looking at this one on reverb
Victor Baker - Gilad Hekselman model | Hyejin Gear Bazaar | Reverb
Its almost $6500 used and has a bit of wear. Looking around the internet that seems as expensive as a new model. Correct?
Is this because of the waiting time for a new VB you think? do you think it's worth the price considering it's condition, or should I try and bargain the price a little?
Unrelated
There is also this moffa, where the price seems more reasonable, but I find the VB guitar much more beautiful
Moffa "Lorraine" semi-acoustic Jazz Guitar | | Reverb
Thanks guys!
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06-18-2020 06:17 AM
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Yes, Victor's prices have gone up over the years, and yes, many are quite beautiful instruments!
Whether it's "worth" it to you, however, to purchase a $6500 instrument is an entirely different topic, and whether this is the "right" guitar for someone who hasn't purchased a guitar in many years is another entirely different topic! The former has a lot to do with economics and psychology (can you afford it, and do you like it?), and the latter has to do with guitar specs you prefer, what kind of "sound" you're chasing, what kind of playing do you do (bedroom or gigs), etc. etc.
If you want ideas on whether this is the right guitar for you, please share your spec preferences, style, gigs, etc., and I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions, including other, just-as-nice, and less-expensive options.
Happy hunting!
[and FWIW, I like the Moffa!]
Marc
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Thanks for the answer!
Ofcourse there Are a lot of subjectivity involved and even a brick is worth 1000$ if its the brick you love i really like the sound i heard Guys like gilad gets from the guitar, Even though he doesnt use that model so much these days.
But what im unsure about is related to the relative price for its condition and new price. How is the resale value, and how is the price compared to other guitars like it
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This is one of the "normal" dilemmata when you're on a budget but still looking at high$ guitars ... you can only speculate about resale value , especially when we're talking about modern/recent instruments. From what I have observed over the past 5 years or so I think that owners of Moffa and/or Baker guitars tend to hold on to them or if they do sell them, it's a non-publicized deal amongst friends or colleagues.
The Moffa in the ad is a GREAT value and I'm pretty sure that you could haggle down the price even some more.
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Victor makes great instruments. Having sold off most of my guitars, I kept his 14” semi hollow. With a new Lollar CC pup in the HB route, it’s the guitar I play a lot. I’ll always keep my L5C and the VB.
The great thing about VB—he’s willing to experiment. I have commissioned a special electric guitar that I know will be totally experimental, one that no one has produced, that will take some new design work with AUTOCAD and new thinking to implement.
Just think about that for a moment-he’s willing to build something radically different and challenge himself to create an instrument no one has ever made before.
Last edited by NSJ; 06-18-2020 at 01:37 PM.
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Hi
i noticed this as well that his prices have increased or like the used one, for a same price..i bought my VB model 15 3 years ago now for $5500, that's when he lived in NYC..Mine is that Cello vibe..It came up forsale on his website and it was sold to some guy but fell through and I grabbed it..never played one before so had no idea what i was getting into..but said what the hell and went for it...about a year later after i got it Victor made me that Peter Bernstein style pickgaurd for it .its been is my main guitar for jazz and has opened up nicely!. i have put a ton of gig hours on it and it shows.. But go for it, im sure you will dig it. Oh ya ive been eyeing Moffas too! i want to try one
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This was my experience also when he made my lam-top 17" archtop for me. He has been very successful over the past 5 years or so and he can afford to raise his prices.
Originally Posted by NSJ
Victor makes great instruments. Having sold off most of my guitars, I kept his 14” semi hollow. With a new Lollar CC pup in the HB route, it’s the guitar I play a lot. I’ll always keep my L5C and the VB.
The great thing about VB—he’s willing to experiment. I have commissioned a special electric guitar that I know will be totally experimental, one that no one has produced, that will take some new design work with AUTOCAD and new thinking to implement.
Just think about that for a moment-he’s willing to built and challenge himself to create an instrument no one has ever made before.
The air is getting quite thin up there but his guitars are played by many active pro players so they get around and people take notice.
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This is always a hard subject when discussing prices and value. I'm sure for the luthier having a backlog and increasing prices is a good thing.
I find certain luthiers like Frans Elferink, Mark Campellone, Stephan Holst to be extraordinarily fair with their pricing.
And a couple of others whom instruments I quite admire, overboard and greedy in comparison. But that's what the free market economy allows. And usually it works itself out for the better. You need to find what works for you and what your comfort limit financially will allow.
I'm very happy with my Elferink Tonemaster archtop, since it met my needs and was extraordinarily lower priced due to Euro vs. Dollar 5 or 6 years ago.
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That price In the OP is a used price set by some third party shop, not VB. Located in South Korea
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No doubt, but Victor has increased his prices in recent years. And maybe rightfully so. Supply and demand are usually a motivation for increasing your prices.
I dont think either Victor Baker nor Bryant Trenier are wrong to raise their prices.
I was mentioning a couple of luthiers that have had extraordinarily high prices for years now. I do admire their work and design ethic as well. Just do t think the market is the reason for their high prices. Could be ego involved or just limiting their output.
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My thought has no bearing the quality of the models listed in the initial post, rather $6,500 is a huge chunk of change for a guitar. If you have the cash and it is "the" guitar, by all means that's cool. Just remember, resell will likely be a pain as the number of people that spend that much on a guitar (and a smaller genre style guitar at that) is becoming smaller and smaller as the quality of lower cost guitars keeps improving.
Good luck with your quest!
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Anyone looking at guitars posted on Reverb should remember that those prices are frequently aspirational. Looking at the price paid for guitars that actually sold is more informative. Actual selling prices can be as much as $2000 below the asking price on the higher end instruments.
When it comes to archtop guitar as I am probably not a modernist, so VB's work, Moffa's work, etc., often don't particularly appeal to me. Jimmy D'Aquisto's later stuff, on the other hand, really appeals to me so go figure. Lots of other people clearly love these newer styled instruments, however, because those luthiers are busy and productive. I am just behind the times. I am usually listening to Jim Hall, Johnny Smith or Ed Bickert rather than Gilad Hekselman (although I do have a couple of his albums). Heck, my archtop has a Charlie Christian style floater and my favorite amp is a tweed Deluxe, so I am not up to date...
If I was looking at a more modern styled arch top, I would probably look at the Eastman El Ray series, particularly the ER 4. Modern instruments, well-made, fraction of the cost. A lot of the high end modern style guitars seem to use Kent Armstrong handwound pickups; those are easily obtained in the aftermarket and retrofitted if one wishes.
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I will say in defense of Victor Baker and archtop luthiers. You get a bespoke guitar when buying from one of these fine craftsman. No it isn't cheap, but it's a cut above Eastman for sure.
I say this not as a put down to Eastman Guitars. I've owned a bunch including an El Rey 2, JP880, 810CE,etc. Great guitars ,especially for the money!
But they aren't in the class of a fine handmade archtop by ,any of today's fine luthiers.
Working with someone like Victor, Frans Elferink in my case. I chose neck shape and profile, thicker carved top and back for a more Gibson J.S. tone.etc.
Again nothing but praise for Eastman, but it may not be the tone or playability for some people.
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A lot of great players today do play smaller private Luthier guitars: Victor Baker-Marchione-Trenier-Ribbecke-Sadowsky. Sadowsky is a bit unusual because his guitars are basically made in a factory in Japan and finished and set up in shop. The other guys do everything themselves.
Of those guitar makers, Victor is head and shoulders the best actual GUITAR player of the bunch. And you can price out, for yourself, one of his guitars verses the other luthiers as well.
The one guitar I never see anybody gig with is a fabled Ken Parker archtop? Who actually owns them? I know Ken loans them out to top players, occasionally, to test out. But I never see anyone playing one on a regular basis.
My philosophy is BETTER FEWER, but BETTER. Why clutter life with excessive gear? I think I finally reached a stage where I can tell the difference between a top guitar and an Eastman or whatever. Most of my disposable money has gone to guitars, since I don’t have kids. So, I’d rather get a few nice things that I really like and play, than a whole bunch of gear. I’ve kind of settled: I’ll never sell my old L5, I have a great Brahms guitar, I like the VB semi-hollow.
And having bought and sold multiple Gibson Howard Roberts oval holes , ES-175s, Ibanez GB10s-Heritage Eagles-I’ve Gotten rid of them all, and happily settled on a Sadowsky Jim Hall model. It’s perfect for me, as a laminate archtop.
Having brought and sold multiple Teles and planks and slabs, I’ve gotten rid of them all and got a PRS John Mayer model. It’s perfect for me—the setting on selection 1-2 is actually quite good for jazz, and the neck is dead PERFECT out of the box.
Sometimes it takes a while to realize what one really wants, but when that day comes, it’s great.
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No argument with this statement. Just to my point, the cost of these guitars is extremely high in todays flooded market of quality instruments. Resale almost always takes time and a significant loss of cash. Selling my two Benedetto Bravo Deluxe guitars several years ago took some time and at a significant loss over new price. Thankfully, I had purchased them used which helped ease the pain a bit. For all the guitars owners out there, very few keep a guitar as a lifetime guitar and eventually end up selling and moving onto something new... me included. Originally Posted by jads57
Example, for most high end custom luthier guitars you loose more money selling it used than if you purchase a used Eastman or similarly priced guitar (say $1000-1500) and then give it away. Yes, there are exceptions and some guitars may go up in value.
Again, I agree. But this also goes to all brands of guitars. I had been longing for a Benedetto Bravo for years and grabbed one when I had the means and used one came available. I had not previously played a Benedetto Bravo, but the internet ramblings and videos of how great they were surely meant that they were great for me. During the honeymoon I found and purchased a second Bravo (I know, why?). Turns out that the dull thunk (to me ears) that a Bravo has was not all all what I enjoyed playing. No doubt the guitars' built was top notch, but not my thing. Originally Posted by jads57
Bottom line, don't get wrapped up in hype (warranted or not) about a specific luthier or guitar brand/model until you have actually had a chance to play it.
Buy what makes you happy, but research and play the guitars (often if possible) before purchasing to ensure it really fits your playing style and wants.
... just my 2 cents...Last edited by Steve Z; 06-19-2020 at 04:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
All great points! My comments above about the high price of custom builds by top luthiers stands, but as stated in my last post replying to jads57's post...
Buy what makes you happy, but research and play the guitars (often if possible) before purchasing to ensure it really fits your playing style and wants.
I am guilty as the next player buying and selling, rinse and repeat. Once you find what you really like, go for it!
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is Victor Baker even making guitars anymore? His website copyright is 2017 and all his posts are from then. Looks like he just kinda abandoned it?
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Sadowsky is in the $5100 range now --Quality instruments (jim hall model)
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He's better on FB. Originally Posted by garthmoore
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Like so many expensive super premium items, if you want it and can afford it without even noticing the cost to your finances, and it makes you happy, go ahead and get it. If you have to save up for it, sacrifice other things and consider it "a major purchase", it's probably a foolish thing to buy and in time you'll regret spending 3 or 4 times the money that you could have spent for a different, great guitar. In short, if you can't easily afford it, you can't afford it.
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Just want to chime in about these expensive guitars. The MOST important thing to ME by far is a straight and true neck/fb. I like a straight fb with very little relief, especially as we get up toward the body. Anything else can be a slight compromise for me: pickup change, pots, etc. I've never had the pleasure of playing a Benedetto, Campellone, Holst, etc, but I just wonder if their necks are any better than less expensive offerings. I'm ASSUMING they are, but since I've never had the pleasure of trying one, I don't know myself. So far, my Sadowsky archtop fb has been the best ever. Better than any of the many Gibsons I've owned. (But my Guild AA and Heritage JS were also stellar straight.)
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He's very active building guitars and very busy. Originally Posted by garthmoore
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