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  1. #1

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    TL;DR: Why do we pay so much for the same package with a different name on it? Why do some people "only play authentic." AND another question: when someone doesn't play an American instrument, why is there so much backlash for it? Especially if it's affordable and high quality.

    The long version:

    Just my observations here. I've actually never been a brand-ist or whatever. I just like quality instruments. I can find more videos and posts anywhere on the internet about gear than about technique and stuff like that. I've gotta say, what I see a lot is people talk up a great deal about branded things, certain big brands, and high priced items.I think that's when someone brags the most is when they have something vintage or worth a lot of money. They tend to find any reason at all to bring it up in ANY conversation.

    I know some people will get mad at me for saying things like this, but I just find it really weird when someone might be talking about their, ya know lower priced items like maybe a lower end guitar or you know just ANYTHING music gear that they can afford and a lot of the times someone has to say something like "oh yeah, that's a nice guitar. but I love my vintage 1947 so and so." Lol. I also find it kinda funny that when someone has a vintage guitar or high end guitar they spell the whole thing out but something like an epi will always be abbreviated. I'm not calling anyone out or saying that you can't talk about your gear. But I feel like especially expensive or big name stuff people always feel the need to mention it. I mean, you have every right, you bought it. But #1, I've played a LOT of lower end stuff that isn't horrible. In fact, with proper set up most lower end guitars will freaking play VERY well. But we just cast stuff like that off. Names on gear has come to matter so much.

    Like I said, it's just an observation it's not me hating or calling anyone out. I'm pretty happy with my gear actually. And I've played a lot of high end stuff as well, but I don't see how or why I'd pay the price of some stuff. Statistically, most guitars are home guitarists. In the grand number of people who play guitars, most don't gig or need professional gear. Like I said, I have guitars, and one professional tier guitar. I won't name the brands or names. And I love my gear. But what I'm trying to point out, why does lower cost and different building techniques USUALLY equate to more crappy gear? Yes, it will sound different. almost any two guitars will sound different. But there are people who literally will never touch a 1950's Gibson L5 and they have enough skill to outplay anyone who's ever owned one. Isn't the skill and the sound much more important than what's on the headstock? I know not everyone is like this. Not everyone cares about name, but about quality. And I'm glad. But the whole reaching for names thing is kinda...weird. Idk. Why do people do that?

    Where I come from, it doesn't matter what you play, it matters IF you can play. No one ever talked about brands or anything. Literally no one cared. I never had a single conversation about brands my first more than 7 years playing guitar. This topic came to mind because I wanted a simple amp. So I got a lower end 50 watt amp. It has great clean tone. Literally so clean, it's basically direct input clean. It is a solid state of course, so I guess it basically is. Super amazing in terms of tone. Even for jazz. If you dial in the EQ right you can warm it up nicely. Not only that but it has so many effects i'll never use. I literally just need clean and reverb. And I was thinking like if this low end amp sounds this good why do people buy much more expensive stuff if some lower costing stuff could sound just as good or even better sometimes. But because it's not a certain model of a certain brand no one even looks at it. I also know, though, that a lot of times low end stuff doesn't sound as FULL. But gosh I saw this one video and this guy was talking about a couple of different pickups, and he was like "you don't need to keep messing with the tone. Just set it and forget it. What you got is what you got." And people say all the time that gear doesn't matter, its how you play. And yet, it seems like gear matters more. hahaha. Everyone says the same thing, but no one actually follows that? Lol. i'm so confused.

    DISCLAIMER: If you're mad about anything I said, i'm sorry. I'm not here to start an argument or troll. I just wanna voice my observation and see how others think about this topic. Thanks.

    BT
    Last edited by broturtel; 06-03-2020 at 02:46 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    If you want anyone to read your post: Try splitting it up in to paragraphs. Right now it's totally unreadable.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug B
    If you want anyone to read your post: Try splitting it up in to paragraphs. Right now it's totally unreadable.
    cheers.

  5. #4

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    Your points have a certain validity. On the other hand, guitar ownership is something we all have in common, and can discuss in an open and friendly manner. In these stressful times, gear discussions can be a soothing distraction from the crap-fest in the real world. I see no harm here.*

    *Not that I don't enjoy a good theory thread. But sometimes, after a while, my temples begin to throb a bit. So a dash of "Bigsbys - Curse or Abomination?"** provides a little relief.

    **Just kidding! I simply have no self-control when it comes to wiggle-sticks.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Your points have a certain validity. On the other hand, guitar ownership is something we all have in common, and can discuss in an open and friendly manner. In these stressful times, gear discussions can be a soothing distraction from the crap-fest in the real world. I see no harm here.*

    *Not that I don't enjoy a good theory thread. But sometimes, after a while, my temples begin to throb a bit. So a dash of "Bigsbys - Curse or Abomination?"** provides a little relief.

    **Just kidding! I simply have no self-control when it comes to wiggle-sticks.
    Oh yes you're definitely right! I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all to talk about gear. No way! I love guitars, and I love the guitars I have for a darn fact. I spend just as much time taking care of them as I do playing them honestly. I guess I'm just saying that there is so much quality affordable gear out there. I wonder why we pay so much for the same package with a different name on it, that's all!

  7. #6

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    Is that still a thing? Some of the biggest names have been playing MIJ instruments for decades. Back when there was a quality gap between the US instruments and the asian ones, MIA had a certain cache. And sure, the first time I could afford an honest to God Fender Stratocaster that I saved up for years, that was a big deal. But these days? I dunno, it seems to me MIJ is now considered quality fully on a par with MIA. Or maybe I'm just too old to give a damn what anybody thinks abut my guitars these days.

    The budget vs expensive thing doesn't seem to be much of an issue. Most of the younger players I see locally either use some type of Fender, or a budget model akin to a Gibson. Godin 5th avenues were in vogue for a while. Budget instruments are as good as they ever were. The luxury brands have priced themselves out of that demographic. Doesn't seem to me like the young cats feel any remorse about going for lower cost and the music certainly doesn't suffer.

    And people play on more diverse range of gear than ever before, as far as I can tell. If you can play, people seem to accept it. If you play like me, no luthier work of art would save you

    Vintage will sort itself once the boomers die off. There'll always be a market, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't contract a good bit. Besides, as working instruments, newer instruments are as good as any.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Vintage will sort itself once the boomers die off.
    I laughed way too hard at this hahaha.

    But yeah, the MIA thing is something I see quite a bit. Like people becoming legitimately upset at others owning guitars and equipment that's not "American." But what about all of the components that make up those guitars and other gear that are made in Asia? Shouldn't it be "Assembled in America?"

    Anyways, thanks for your response and your input! I agree. The quality gap isn't so huge now. There is SO much low costing gear that's quality these days, and there has been for a good while now.

  9. #8

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    I've posted about this, well, too often. Half the time, I play the cheapest student model Yamaha makes (counting on the couch at home). But, I did have to replace a lot of the hardware. If that was the only guitar I had, I'd probably be content.

    At one time, cheap, good quality guitars were not widely available. That's changed.

    I'm always surprised when I see reviews of Tele's for several thousand dollars. I think, Leo designed them to be cheap to make. And, the old ones are the most admired. So, why are some new ones so expensive?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    But yeah, the MIA thing is something I see quite a bit. Like people becoming legitimately upset at others owning guitars and equipment that's not "American." But what about all of the components that make up those guitars and other gear that are made in Asia? Shouldn't it be "Assembled in America?"
    I can't remember seeing someone getting upset about non American instruments on this forum. But I see a lot of people praising instruments made elsewhere, both cheaper Asian made ones and luthier made ones (often European).

    I am to a certain extent with you with the assembled in America thing. It's the same for watches. "Swiss made" only means the base movements are made in Switzerland (often by ETA or Selita). The movement can be modified a lot by the manufacturer, but the watch can still be marked as "Swiss made". That said, many non-Swiss manufacturers don't mark their watches as such anymore though they could. It is now widely known that high quality watches can come from other countries than Switzerland, Germany not the least, which produces some of the highest quality watches these days (say Lange & Söhne and Glashütte Original) on par with Patek and the like. The same can be said for guitars.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm always surprised when I see reviews of Tele's for several thousand dollars. I think, Leo designed them to be cheap to make. And, the old ones are the most admired. So, why are some new ones so expensive?
    Agree. By getting a Squier CV, ones get a quality instrument for a very low cost. Most of them are perfectly playable out of the box, though they can often be made even better by fine tuning the setup. And they can be modded for modest sums. I find the Squier Tele's guitars more in line with Leo's original visions than modern American Tele's. Especially I would never spend on a custom shop Tele. I can customize a cheaper Tele myself for much less money. Even if I wanted a neck from Warmoth with different dimensions - which costs more than a Squier CV - it will still be much, much cheaper than a custom shop Tele or an American Pro or Ultra model.

  12. #11

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    My older brother spent much of his Air Force career in Japan.
    He sent me two guitars while there.
    One was a Yamaha Strat. He bought it new for less the $200. (The dollar was strong against the yen back then.) I took it to a guitar shop here for a setup and the tech told me "On the inside, this IS a Fender." He thought it was a great, well made guitar. I played it for years and loved it. Still miss it sometimes. Probably, all in all, the best guitar I've ever owned.

    The other guitar my brother sent me from Japan was an acoustic he picked up in Korea. It looked like an Ovation but was called an Applause. Pretty blue color. Not a well made guitar, though. Did not like to stay in tune. I think my brother did this because when I was a kid in Nashville my dad----a used car salesman---took in an Ovation in a trade for a station wagon and gave me the guitar. It was imperfect in a way that would affect resale to a serious buyer but it didn't bother me any---lovely sounding guitar. Someone stole it from me later but that's another story.) Anyway, I wrote a song on it and sold it to someone else.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've posted about this, well, too often. Half the time, I play the cheapest student model Yamaha makes (counting on the couch at home). But, I did have to replace a lot of the hardware. If that was the only guitar I had, I'd probably be content.

    At one time, cheap, good quality guitars were not widely available. That's changed.

    I'm always surprised when I see reviews of Tele's for several thousand dollars. I think, Leo designed them to be cheap to make. And, the old ones are the most admired. So, why are some new ones so expensive?
    If there are secrets to fulfillment then that's perhaps one of them.

  14. #13

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    I don't know. I feel there's little wrong with the pursuit of a vintage instrument for any (perceived) qualities it possesses, nor is the allure of owning a famous brand name necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps it's one of those times where it shouldn't be considered a binary. Is the discussion of spec sheets the new literature? Late night arguing back and forth over 'McCullers's John Singer - simply her everyman or something more faceted?' now obsolete and replaced by 'Solid body tonewoods are a thing and here's a bunch of YouTube links!'


    My humble Artcore (the wooden bridge, that's the reason it can go *Thunk*? In any case, it's worth the price of admission alone) makes me happy and my Tele is...I tuned it yesterday, the second of June and I've made an entry in my diary 'Tune Tele again during the first week of August'. I'm told it was/is the cheapest made in USA Tele. Really? Well, how about that?


    Boomers/vintage guitars? Yeah, that'll probably naturally fade a little in time, although there's undoubtedly a number of alternatives waiting in the wings, including the sometimes vociferous exchanges of opinion (despite the ultimate banality) of the ongoing PC/Console wars.


    Off topic anecdote of questionable merit time: Years ago I took early retirement. A lot of my work stuff was up for grabs. I had on offer two lenses within the standard focal length range for a 35mm camera system. Both were fast. Some guy came to view them and as part of that we took them out at night and shot a few frames. In the end he bought the more expensive of the two. Reading between the lines part of his reasoning/justification was '...and there's always the bragging rights'.


    Like I said, I dont know. Maybe just desire and play what's important to you, while being honest about the 'Why'.

  15. #14

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    Men love their toys, and they are objects of desire and status...like women, cars, motorcycles, guns, fly rods, golf clubs, cameras, computers, tools, and certainly musical instruments. Priced a pro quality tenor sax and mouthpiece lately?

  16. #15

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    I think you over-estimate how "mad" people will get. you'll find all kinds of instruments used on this group. I own 6 Gibsons, including an L5ces, but I very often post clips playing my economy guitars, like an Epiphone Zephyr Regent Re-issue I picked up used, or the Epiphone ES175. I have posted side-by-side comparisons of expensive and inexpensive guitars and shown that many of the bargain priced guitars get close to the expensive ones if you just go for recorded sound.

    I always got a very gracious, enthusiastic response to my demos of cheaper guitars and amps, even from folks (like me!) who still love the Gibsons.

    Maybe just ask your question and not verbalize a lot of anticipation of people "getting mad." We have a wide range of opinion and experience on this forum.

  17. #16

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    I generally see my guitars as my tools, in that they have to do the job, but they don't have to have a particular brand or cache. I also decided, as a full-time player, to make sure that anything I bought would pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time. Most of my working tools are inexpensive but seem very well-made and certainly work the way I needed them to, since I was depending on them for my living. Apart from my high-end luthier-made concert flamenco guitars (funded by a fan, mind you), nothing in my studio cost me over $1400 except my Bose L1 sound system. I've owned "name" guitars, several, in fact, but found them eating too much of my income, without generating higher fees for me. As a gigging player, it's really hard to justify spending a sum that might take 40 or 50 gigs to recoup! The two instruments that I've made the most money with payed for themselves in 2 or 3 gigs.

  18. #17

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    For me, the most important value in having professional level gear is that it inspires me to play better... and the better I can play, the more enjoyment I experience. Good gear inspires and challenges me to aspire to play more musically.

    Everyone has his or her cost parameters... that is just the reality of life. The temptation to drop names of high end stuff one owns is inescapable. Can it become annoying? Sure. But that’s MY problem, not the other person’s.

    Funny thing is... 99.9999% of people will not be the least bit impressed that you just commissioned a Monteleone archtop.

    What is amazing is to find another gearhead face to face (usually via Craigslist) who actually knows what you’re talking about... and you can have an animated conversation about guitars and amplifiers and pedals for 30-40 minutes. That is fun!

    The essence of all of this is the blessed making of music and experiencing that spark of creativity in the moment. No one can diminish or take that away.

    I’m a boomer and that’s my story. Thanks for listening...

  19. #18

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    I sometimes salivate in response to a picture of an expensive guitar. Last time I visited Rudy's I was able to play most of the vintage D'Angelicos and some other high end guitars.

    They're music, they're art, I love them.

    But, if I spent the $80,000, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to take it to a gig. And, not a single one of them is as playable (with my arthritic hands) as the Yamaha cheapie.

    Did they sound good? Sure. Could I have picked them out of a group of $600 dollar archtops in a blind test? Frankly, I doubt it. Well, maybe for solo guitar.

  20. #19

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    The way I see it, to each his own.
    It really depends on what drives the individual. The G on the headstock for me is Manditory.
    But I will NEVER belittle anyone elses guitar and I dont think anyone else around here does.
    JD

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    The way I see it, to each his own.
    It really depends on what drives the individual. The G on the headstock for me is Manditory.
    But I will NEVER belittle anyone elses guitar and I dont think anyone else around here does.
    JD
    The only belittling I see tends to be aimed at folks who love the G brand.

    Reminds me of being in competitive shooting. I saved and scrimped for a matched pair of 2nd Generation Colt Single Action Army revolvers, caliber .44-40. A guy smirked at me and said he could buy 5 replicas for the price of one Colt.

    One of the other old guys commented, "But you still wouldn't have a Colt, buddy!"

    Over time, my Colts stood up to thousands of rounds fired in competitive action shooting in all weathers, leather holsters, dropped, and they stood up.

    Don't know where I'm going with this...

  22. #21

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    People like Fender.
    Fun fact: corporation which owns Fender now, did manufacture jeans 10-12 years ago.
    So I don't take Fender fans seriously. xD

  23. #22

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    I kind of consider this place the "Gear Page" of archtops. The rest of the forum has all the discussion about playing technique, and music in general, but here just gear and gear ownership. For good or bad. I think it is good, so these types of discussions about "Gear" are not corrupting the other forums.

    I think most guitarists good, and bad, are passionate about their guitar, and this is the place to discuss that aspect of being a guitarist.

    That is a long-winded way of saying that in the other sub- forums I don't think anyone gives a rat's ass if a G Dom 7 chord is played on a Gibson or Kay.

  24. #23

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    Fender is owned by a former jeans company... didn’t know that.
    And Gibson is now run by the ex CEO of a jeans company... hmmm could start a conspiracy theory.


    dave

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    I kind of consider this place the "Gear Page" of archtops. The rest of the forum has all the discussion about playing technique, and music in general, but here just gear and gear ownership. For good or bad. I think it is good, so these types of discussions about "Gear" are not corrupting the other forums.

    I think most guitarists good, and bad, are passionate about their guitar, and this is the place to discuss that aspect of being a guitarist.

    That is a long-winded way of saying that in the other sub- forums I don't think anyone gives a rat's ass if a G Dom 7 chord is played on a Gibson or Kay.
    Solid point icr.

  26. #25

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    All I know about this subject is this: Gibsons rule!

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    I kind of consider this place the "Gear Page" of archtops.
    TGP has discussions like this one ongoing all the time. Nothing is ever resolved.

    Danny W.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    TGP has discussions like this one ongoing all the time. Nothing is ever resolved.

    Danny W.
    Agree totally and for the life of me, I don't understand the repeated discussions. I don't give a whit what other folks spend their money on but we seem to have a small subset folks on "gear" forums of all places who feel it necessary to question or analyze why someone decides to play X guitar when according to them Y is cheaper,better or some other attribute that is critical to the commentator. Play what you want to play, play what you can afford, play what stokes your muse, above all just play.

    I own guitars from many different mfgs including Asian. In fact my second oldest guitar is an Aria Pro II Johnny Smith copy from 77'. I would have loved to buy the real thing in 77' but given my financial condition at the time it was the best I could afford. When I arrived at a point in my life where I had enough disposable income to enjoy the fruits of my labor, I still purchased what moved me. If having the name Gibson on the head stock moves you and provides inspiration an motivation, who am I to question that desire. In full disclosure I also own 3 Gibsons. That said, I purchased them because they spoke to me and inspired me to play. In the words of Frank Zappa "Shut up 'n play yer guitar.

  29. #28
    I JUST WANT TO CLEAR THIS UP!

    *clears throat*
    To each their own. Idc what someone else plays. I like what I play and I understand that others like what they play. All I simply meant was if there's so much good gear out there for cheaper prices, why do we let ourselves pay for equally as good of gear at much higher prices. That's it.

    Haha. Just wanted to say that.

    But also, many of you make valid points as well! I'm glad you all found things that you like, and I'm sure our taste grows and develops. I'll tell you what, I don't like even close to the same sound I liked even 2 years ago. We all become different, better, and more adept players. You guys keep rocking and talking about gear. I just wanted to pose some food for thought. But man these posts get heated way too freaking quickly. lol.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    if there's so much good gear out there for cheaper prices, why do we let ourselves pay for equally as good of gear at much higher prices. That's it.
    Sounds like sour grapes....

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    <<SNIP>> The G on the headstock for me is Mandatory.
    <<SNIP>>
    JD
    Is that Gretsch or Guild

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    I've gotta say, what I see a lot is people talk up a great deal about branded things, certain big brands, and high priced items.I think that's when someone brags the most is when they have something vintage or worth a lot of money. They tend to find any reason at all to bring it up in ANY conversation.
    I know a few guys like this. Horrible musicians, the lot of 'em. I don't usually want to put down "nobodies" as it's not punching up, but every single guy I know who acts like you've described in the quote, is as bad a person as they are musician. When I started playing around age 10-12, I too was obsessed with american-made gear and if not american, expensive. Posted a picture of my Fender stratocaster on facebook age 13, and when my aunt commented "cool!", I replied "did you catch its value?" - an impulse that a child might have, but one we grow out of... Mostly.

    I was putting down a local store and a couple of the guys that work there, for not only their utter lack of competence (calling a transistor amp a "digital computer" and the gross mishandling of a pedal I needed parts for), but for their arrogance and generally condescending attitudes.
    One of the aforementioned terrible guys was unfortunately present for this discussion, and eagerly defended them by saying: "They always treat me right. But then again, I buy top-quality gear that costs quite a lot", to which I said that the amount of markup and profits on individual sales should be irrelevant to service, and this guy retorted: "No professional guitar player would ever use a transistor amplifier anyway.", and then "buy better gear".
    For reference, this guy has custom ordered a strat-style guitart with a ridiculous heavy relic, and his own surname on the headstock... Not saying everyone who does that is a narcissist, but this guy definitely spends more time on talking about historically accurate fret wire than he does practicing, which is what he should be doing. I don't consider regurgitated John Mayer licks to be any kind of musical talent.

    Rant over... I think. Just one example of what kind of people I've run into in my life with the gear obsession. Please don't take this the wrong way. If a guy has forty L-5's, I'm not saying anything. Elitism is the problem, innit

  33. #32

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    Talk talk talk .. It's so easy to say stuff like this, but without examples it means little.


    But when you dig into concrete examples of guitar ... suddenly you find that those big brand guitars aren't necessarily more expensive than others ... or worse for that matter.

    There are so many brands these days and competition is stiff .. so usually you get what you pay for.


    Off course if you can provide specific examples where a traditional brand gets smoked by a non-traditional one then please do. I doubt it tho

  34. #33

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    Music forums and music youtubers are literally extremelly toxic and pure cancer.
    So this place is cool compared to them.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Men love their toys, and they are objects of desire and status...like women, cars, motorcycles, guns, fly rods, golf clubs, cameras, computers, tools, and certainly musical instruments. Priced a pro quality tenor sax and mouthpiece lately?

    In my youth and naivety, I trundled off to "Selmers" music shop in Charing X road , bent on buying a Baritone sax ( like my hero Gerry Mulligan)
    in their window there it was....The price , staggering. The cost of a MkV1 today is over £9,000. I bought an inexpensive guitar in lieu which
    served well until, I managed to afford a used Gibson Es335, for £100,,,,,Utopia , I have since owned a plethora of Gibsons , my herd reduced to three
    now plus other makes. When you own a Gibson it is expected that you can play it, and one can derive great pleasure from having a World
    renowned instrument. Cosmic Gumbo hit the nail on the head here.
    Keep plucking away LOL

  36. #35

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    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.

  37. #36

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  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J.
    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.
    Only a Dennis is good enough.

    Do We Make Too Big A Deal About Certain Brands of Gear?-c4cb9df7-f52b-46c2-8aeb-d1de72527dc0-jpg

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Sounds like sour grapes....
    Sounds like common sense, actually. 55 years later, I still have never been hired or not hired for the brand of instrument I'm playing. Never got paid more for playing a Gibson, or less for playing a Samick or Ibanez or Godin. And, being a mostly 7-string player, there isn't a Gibson available to me anyway.

  40. #39

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    Professional musicians often make slightly different purchasing choices. gear snobs online are generally not working players.

    my observations:

    - no one buys new if they can help it

    - no one wants to fly with a vintage Gibson in the hold. you need a replaceable functional touring instrument, a REALLY good case, or an extra seat. Tbh the stress at airports can be so great, I’ll just take a cheap but good guitar.

    - There are brands/makers that are expensive but considered to be better value than equivalently priced instruments of more famous brands. An obvious example is that Suhr is generally considered superior to Fender Custom Shop by most players I have spoken to.

    - pros build up relationships with gear manufacturers and designers. Many need good players to represent their gear, so you get deals and support. Some brands are ... shall we say ... more responsive to this than others. This isn’t free guitars exactly... it’s more complex.

    (to give you an idea, I have it on good authority that Fender wouldn’t give Johnny Marr one of his own signature guitars for touring. If they won’t you can bet smaller makers won’t. The endorsement/free guitars thing is a bit of a myth.)

    - there are quite a few players who actually play inexpensive instruments. Nir Felder springs to mind. At some point I’m sure Suhr or someone will chuck a guitar at him, or more likely, give him a discount, but at the moment he sounds amazing on a Mexican Strat.

    - good players match the tool to the gig. They don’t necessarily discriminate because of price. They may have instruments that are very valuable and cheap guitars that all do a job. They are confident trusting their own judgement on these things.

  41. #40

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    Another thing

    Guitars are comparatively cheap. Even Collings.

    A violinist friend pointed out - guitarists are collectors, string players are not. Buying a violin is an incredibly stressful and big decision, like buying a house.

    TBF many working players need a good repertoire of sounds, but this is obviously not the case of those who own twenty teles or half a dozen Es 175s is it? :-)

    Archtops are obviously more like buying a violin or cello for your average jobbing jazz guitarists (different from those with proper gigs.) You sell all your other guitars and get a Trenier or whatever. still cheaper though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-04-2020 at 10:47 AM.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J.
    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.
    DO YOU SERIOUSLY WANT TO START IN ON LAWN MOWERS!!

    Kidding!

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    Off course if you can provide specific examples where a traditional brand gets smoked by a non-traditional one then please do. I doubt it tho
    my burny LP custom wipes the floor with it's gibson counterpart.

  44. #43

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    I want to see somebody gig in a Jersey Shore bar with a Gibson LeGrand or some artisan luthier guitar. Cant stop giggling at that thought.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecena
    People like Fender.
    Fun fact: corporation which owns Fender now, did manufacture jeans 10-12 years ago.
    So I don't take Fender fans seriously. xD
    I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

  46. #45

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    Certainly the guitar world has it's fanboys and brand loyalists, but jazz guitar is such a niche, especially with archtops and amps, it seems kind of silly to get hung up on gear snobbery. It's all preference, anyway. I never cared much for Gibsons, at least enough to want to pay a premium, never owned one or a Fender solidbody.

    I have a D'Angelico Excel, "civilians" always comment what a beautiful guitar it is. Only once has someone looked at the headstock and nodded approvingly (and nobody cares it's a Korean copy, either). For some things I do, like big band playing, it's the best guitar. But when I go to the beach, it's a $100 dollar Tele copy, and around my toddler, a $100 Yamaha flatop.

  47. #46

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    To people in the general guitar world, Eastmans are posh lol

    Re: D’Angelico. If it’s good enough for Scott Henderson and Kurt Rosenwinkel....

    lot of jazz lawyers out there .... in every sense...

    I do love my old Gibson though. It’s a vibey guitar.

  48. #47

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    The way it works for me is that some guitars are very characterful, almost annoying, but have amazing qualities. Older Gibsons are like this, I’ve found.... every one is different.

    For instance, my knackered old tuners are a nightmare but I can’t replace them.... the body is really resonant and it’s not a ‘mellow’ guitar at all; in fact it’s almost too much for a Fender amp.. too midrangey, but it sounds incredible through a flat PA or solid state amp.

    Really odd things like that.

    Even new ones are quite vibey.

    Others - and I find this a lot with mid price Korean guitars like my old Ibanez or the new D’Angelicos - are precise and playable, good sounding but maybe lacking in inherent character. They are like a blank canvas.

    OTOH my Chinese guitars have personality, but sometimes the wrong kind haha! Sometimes the - ‘oops I cut the nut far too low, and your frets are all mucked up’ sort of character.

    Many Eastman owners seem to run into problems too. But they are great for the money.

    You have to be prepared to muck around with them...

    but if you’d like to find me a non vintage guitar that does what my Loar LH600 does for less than $5K be my guest.... seriously

    It’s pretty niche...

  49. #48

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    As long as the quality of the guitar is high, I don't think it matters from a playing perspective. Depending on the guitar, that might mean you have to upgrade the pickups and other hardware to make it good enough. A great player I used to know played a Carlo Robelli (cheap imitation) strat copy with Seymour Duncan pickups that sounded amazing.

    The investment perspective is something completely different. If you're going to sink 5-10k (or more) into a guitar, you'll want to be sure you'll get most, all, or possibly even more than your investment back when it comes time to sell. That limits your options as far as brand, place of manufacture etc.

  50. #49

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    Well Fender is not in the hands of a now or former jeans company.

    Did some Fender googling. First quote from guitar.com:

    “Most recently, in January 2020, Servco announced that it would be entering into a sales agreement to purchase TPG Growth’s shares in the company – in effect making Servco Fender’s majority owner. “

    couple quick quotes from Servco press release at
    Fender(R) Musical Instruments Corporation Announces Change In Ownership, Servco Pacific Inc. To Secure Majority Stake - Servco Pacific Capital

    “Servco has been involved in the musical instruments industry since 1937, and its relationship with Fender began as a dealer of its products in the 1950’s. In 1985, Servco was part of the small investor group that backed industry icon, Bill Schultz, in the buyout of Fender from CBS.”

    “Servco Pacific Inc. is Hawaii’s largest privately held company with over $1.8 billion in annual revenues and 2,000 team members spanning Australia, Hawaii, and California. Founded in 1919 (as a two-car repair garage), Servco is now a diversified business with operations in automotive distribution and retail, car sharing, appliance distribution and retail, and venture and growth capital.”

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    TL;DR: Why do we pay so much for the same package with a different name on it? Why do some people "only play authentic." AND another question: when someone doesn't play an American instrument, why is there so much backlash for it? Especially if it's affordable and high quality.

    The long version:

    Just my observations here. I've actually never been a brand-ist or whatever. I just like quality instruments. I can find more videos and posts anywhere on the internet about gear than about technique and stuff like that. I've gotta say, what I see a lot is people talk up a great deal about branded things, certain big brands, and high priced items.I think that's when someone brags the most is when they have something vintage or worth a lot of money. They tend to find any reason at all to bring it up in ANY conversation.
    Haha, yes this always amuses me. Completely unhelpful and attention seeking.

    I think there’s a deeper emotional aspect to this underneath it.