The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by icr
    I kind of consider this place the "Gear Page" of archtops.
    TGP has discussions like this one ongoing all the time. Nothing is ever resolved.

    Danny W.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    TGP has discussions like this one ongoing all the time. Nothing is ever resolved.

    Danny W.
    Agree totally and for the life of me, I don't understand the repeated discussions. I don't give a whit what other folks spend their money on but we seem to have a small subset folks on "gear" forums of all places who feel it necessary to question or analyze why someone decides to play X guitar when according to them Y is cheaper,better or some other attribute that is critical to the commentator. Play what you want to play, play what you can afford, play what stokes your muse, above all just play.

    I own guitars from many different mfgs including Asian. In fact my second oldest guitar is an Aria Pro II Johnny Smith copy from 77'. I would have loved to buy the real thing in 77' but given my financial condition at the time it was the best I could afford. When I arrived at a point in my life where I had enough disposable income to enjoy the fruits of my labor, I still purchased what moved me. If having the name Gibson on the head stock moves you and provides inspiration an motivation, who am I to question that desire. In full disclosure I also own 3 Gibsons. That said, I purchased them because they spoke to me and inspired me to play. In the words of Frank Zappa "Shut up 'n play yer guitar.

  4. #28
    I JUST WANT TO CLEAR THIS UP!

    *clears throat*
    To each their own. Idc what someone else plays. I like what I play and I understand that others like what they play. All I simply meant was if there's so much good gear out there for cheaper prices, why do we let ourselves pay for equally as good of gear at much higher prices. That's it.

    Haha. Just wanted to say that.

    But also, many of you make valid points as well! I'm glad you all found things that you like, and I'm sure our taste grows and develops. I'll tell you what, I don't like even close to the same sound I liked even 2 years ago. We all become different, better, and more adept players. You guys keep rocking and talking about gear. I just wanted to pose some food for thought. But man these posts get heated way too freaking quickly. lol.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    if there's so much good gear out there for cheaper prices, why do we let ourselves pay for equally as good of gear at much higher prices. That's it.
    Sounds like sour grapes....

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    <<SNIP>> The G on the headstock for me is Mandatory.
    <<SNIP>>
    JD
    Is that Gretsch or Guild

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    I've gotta say, what I see a lot is people talk up a great deal about branded things, certain big brands, and high priced items.I think that's when someone brags the most is when they have something vintage or worth a lot of money. They tend to find any reason at all to bring it up in ANY conversation.
    I know a few guys like this. Horrible musicians, the lot of 'em. I don't usually want to put down "nobodies" as it's not punching up, but every single guy I know who acts like you've described in the quote, is as bad a person as they are musician. When I started playing around age 10-12, I too was obsessed with american-made gear and if not american, expensive. Posted a picture of my Fender stratocaster on facebook age 13, and when my aunt commented "cool!", I replied "did you catch its value?" - an impulse that a child might have, but one we grow out of... Mostly.

    I was putting down a local store and a couple of the guys that work there, for not only their utter lack of competence (calling a transistor amp a "digital computer" and the gross mishandling of a pedal I needed parts for), but for their arrogance and generally condescending attitudes.
    One of the aforementioned terrible guys was unfortunately present for this discussion, and eagerly defended them by saying: "They always treat me right. But then again, I buy top-quality gear that costs quite a lot", to which I said that the amount of markup and profits on individual sales should be irrelevant to service, and this guy retorted: "No professional guitar player would ever use a transistor amplifier anyway.", and then "buy better gear".
    For reference, this guy has custom ordered a strat-style guitart with a ridiculous heavy relic, and his own surname on the headstock... Not saying everyone who does that is a narcissist, but this guy definitely spends more time on talking about historically accurate fret wire than he does practicing, which is what he should be doing. I don't consider regurgitated John Mayer licks to be any kind of musical talent.

    Rant over... I think. Just one example of what kind of people I've run into in my life with the gear obsession. Please don't take this the wrong way. If a guy has forty L-5's, I'm not saying anything. Elitism is the problem, innit

  8. #32

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    Music forums and music youtubers are literally extremelly toxic and pure cancer.
    So this place is cool compared to them.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Men love their toys, and they are objects of desire and status...like women, cars, motorcycles, guns, fly rods, golf clubs, cameras, computers, tools, and certainly musical instruments. Priced a pro quality tenor sax and mouthpiece lately?

    In my youth and naivety, I trundled off to "Selmers" music shop in Charing X road , bent on buying a Baritone sax ( like my hero Gerry Mulligan)
    in their window there it was....The price , staggering. The cost of a MkV1 today is over £9,000. I bought an inexpensive guitar in lieu which
    served well until, I managed to afford a used Gibson Es335, for £100,,,,,Utopia , I have since owned a plethora of Gibsons , my herd reduced to three
    now plus other makes. When you own a Gibson it is expected that you can play it, and one can derive great pleasure from having a World
    renowned instrument. Cosmic Gumbo hit the nail on the head here.
    Keep plucking away LOL

  10. #34

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    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.

  11. #35

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  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J.
    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.
    Only a Dennis is good enough.

    Do We Make Too Big A Deal About Certain Brands of Gear?-c4cb9df7-f52b-46c2-8aeb-d1de72527dc0-jpg

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Sounds like sour grapes....
    Sounds like common sense, actually. 55 years later, I still have never been hired or not hired for the brand of instrument I'm playing. Never got paid more for playing a Gibson, or less for playing a Samick or Ibanez or Godin. And, being a mostly 7-string player, there isn't a Gibson available to me anyway.

  14. #38

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    Professional musicians often make slightly different purchasing choices. gear snobs online are generally not working players.

    my observations:

    - no one buys new if they can help it

    - no one wants to fly with a vintage Gibson in the hold. you need a replaceable functional touring instrument, a REALLY good case, or an extra seat. Tbh the stress at airports can be so great, I’ll just take a cheap but good guitar.

    - There are brands/makers that are expensive but considered to be better value than equivalently priced instruments of more famous brands. An obvious example is that Suhr is generally considered superior to Fender Custom Shop by most players I have spoken to.

    - pros build up relationships with gear manufacturers and designers. Many need good players to represent their gear, so you get deals and support. Some brands are ... shall we say ... more responsive to this than others. This isn’t free guitars exactly... it’s more complex.

    (to give you an idea, I have it on good authority that Fender wouldn’t give Johnny Marr one of his own signature guitars for touring. If they won’t you can bet smaller makers won’t. The endorsement/free guitars thing is a bit of a myth.)

    - there are quite a few players who actually play inexpensive instruments. Nir Felder springs to mind. At some point I’m sure Suhr or someone will chuck a guitar at him, or more likely, give him a discount, but at the moment he sounds amazing on a Mexican Strat.

    - good players match the tool to the gig. They don’t necessarily discriminate because of price. They may have instruments that are very valuable and cheap guitars that all do a job. They are confident trusting their own judgement on these things.

  15. #39

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    Another thing

    Guitars are comparatively cheap. Even Collings.

    A violinist friend pointed out - guitarists are collectors, string players are not. Buying a violin is an incredibly stressful and big decision, like buying a house.

    TBF many working players need a good repertoire of sounds, but this is obviously not the case of those who own twenty teles or half a dozen Es 175s is it? :-)

    Archtops are obviously more like buying a violin or cello for your average jobbing jazz guitarists (different from those with proper gigs.) You sell all your other guitars and get a Trenier or whatever. still cheaper though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-04-2020 at 10:47 AM.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by P.J.
    I think the obsession with gear minutia is quite silly. You would not ask a neighbor who has a great lawn what kind of mower he or she uses. Or what kind of oil he or she uses in said mower.
    DO YOU SERIOUSLY WANT TO START IN ON LAWN MOWERS!!

    Kidding!

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    Off course if you can provide specific examples where a traditional brand gets smoked by a non-traditional one then please do. I doubt it tho
    my burny LP custom wipes the floor with it's gibson counterpart.

  18. #42

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    I want to see somebody gig in a Jersey Shore bar with a Gibson LeGrand or some artisan luthier guitar. Cant stop giggling at that thought.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecena
    People like Fender.
    Fun fact: corporation which owns Fender now, did manufacture jeans 10-12 years ago.
    So I don't take Fender fans seriously. xD
    I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

  20. #44

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    Certainly the guitar world has it's fanboys and brand loyalists, but jazz guitar is such a niche, especially with archtops and amps, it seems kind of silly to get hung up on gear snobbery. It's all preference, anyway. I never cared much for Gibsons, at least enough to want to pay a premium, never owned one or a Fender solidbody.

    I have a D'Angelico Excel, "civilians" always comment what a beautiful guitar it is. Only once has someone looked at the headstock and nodded approvingly (and nobody cares it's a Korean copy, either). For some things I do, like big band playing, it's the best guitar. But when I go to the beach, it's a $100 dollar Tele copy, and around my toddler, a $100 Yamaha flatop.

  21. #45

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    To people in the general guitar world, Eastmans are posh lol

    Re: D’Angelico. If it’s good enough for Scott Henderson and Kurt Rosenwinkel....

    lot of jazz lawyers out there .... in every sense...

    I do love my old Gibson though. It’s a vibey guitar.

  22. #46

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    The way it works for me is that some guitars are very characterful, almost annoying, but have amazing qualities. Older Gibsons are like this, I’ve found.... every one is different.

    For instance, my knackered old tuners are a nightmare but I can’t replace them.... the body is really resonant and it’s not a ‘mellow’ guitar at all; in fact it’s almost too much for a Fender amp.. too midrangey, but it sounds incredible through a flat PA or solid state amp.

    Really odd things like that.

    Even new ones are quite vibey.

    Others - and I find this a lot with mid price Korean guitars like my old Ibanez or the new D’Angelicos - are precise and playable, good sounding but maybe lacking in inherent character. They are like a blank canvas.

    OTOH my Chinese guitars have personality, but sometimes the wrong kind haha! Sometimes the - ‘oops I cut the nut far too low, and your frets are all mucked up’ sort of character.

    Many Eastman owners seem to run into problems too. But they are great for the money.

    You have to be prepared to muck around with them...

    but if you’d like to find me a non vintage guitar that does what my Loar LH600 does for less than $5K be my guest.... seriously

    It’s pretty niche...

  23. #47

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    As long as the quality of the guitar is high, I don't think it matters from a playing perspective. Depending on the guitar, that might mean you have to upgrade the pickups and other hardware to make it good enough. A great player I used to know played a Carlo Robelli (cheap imitation) strat copy with Seymour Duncan pickups that sounded amazing.

    The investment perspective is something completely different. If you're going to sink 5-10k (or more) into a guitar, you'll want to be sure you'll get most, all, or possibly even more than your investment back when it comes time to sell. That limits your options as far as brand, place of manufacture etc.

  24. #48

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    Well Fender is not in the hands of a now or former jeans company.

    Did some Fender googling. First quote from guitar.com:

    “Most recently, in January 2020, Servco announced that it would be entering into a sales agreement to purchase TPG Growth’s shares in the company – in effect making Servco Fender’s majority owner. “

    couple quick quotes from Servco press release at
    Fender(R) Musical Instruments Corporation Announces Change In Ownership, Servco Pacific Inc. To Secure Majority Stake - Servco Pacific Capital

    “Servco has been involved in the musical instruments industry since 1937, and its relationship with Fender began as a dealer of its products in the 1950’s. In 1985, Servco was part of the small investor group that backed industry icon, Bill Schultz, in the buyout of Fender from CBS.”

    “Servco Pacific Inc. is Hawaii’s largest privately held company with over $1.8 billion in annual revenues and 2,000 team members spanning Australia, Hawaii, and California. Founded in 1919 (as a two-car repair garage), Servco is now a diversified business with operations in automotive distribution and retail, car sharing, appliance distribution and retail, and venture and growth capital.”

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by broturtel
    TL;DR: Why do we pay so much for the same package with a different name on it? Why do some people "only play authentic." AND another question: when someone doesn't play an American instrument, why is there so much backlash for it? Especially if it's affordable and high quality.

    The long version:

    Just my observations here. I've actually never been a brand-ist or whatever. I just like quality instruments. I can find more videos and posts anywhere on the internet about gear than about technique and stuff like that. I've gotta say, what I see a lot is people talk up a great deal about branded things, certain big brands, and high priced items.I think that's when someone brags the most is when they have something vintage or worth a lot of money. They tend to find any reason at all to bring it up in ANY conversation.
    Haha, yes this always amuses me. Completely unhelpful and attention seeking.

    I think there’s a deeper emotional aspect to this underneath it.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Talk talk talk .. It's so easy to say stuff like this, but without examples it means little.


    But when you dig into concrete examples of guitar ... suddenly you find that those big brand guitars aren't necessarily more expensive than others ... or worse for that matter.

    There are so many brands these days and competition is stiff .. so usually you get what you pay for.


    Off course if you can provide specific examples where a traditional brand gets smoked by a non-traditional one then please do. I doubt it tho
    Here's a story for you: When I graduated from university I bought myself an Epiphone Elitist Broadway as a graduation present. I always loved the Wes Montgomery/L5 vibe and could have afforded a Gibson L5 CES or Wes Montgomery model at the time. The Epi seemed like a good value though, so I bought it instead.

    A few years later, I just had to have a Gibson and I bought a Wesmo, intending to sell the Epi. The Gibson was beautiful looking with premium solid woods, but it had some quirks. For example, it had a wolf tone on one note that drove me crazy. The Epi was always stalwart perfection. In fact, I came to call it "my Lexus" because like the car brand, it was big and heavy, but incredibly well built. I was also paranoid about taking the Gibson to real-world gigs where it might get damaged or stolen. After a while I realized the Epi was actually a much better guitar, so I kept it and sold the Gibson. I did get more for the Gibson than I paid for it though.