The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I do love owning an L5 CES. I don't play it as much as I should because every time I do pull it out, something bothers me about it.
    I have gotten used to the low frets, that seem lower on the treble string side, but that's a matter of spending time on it.

    In the last couple of days, I have put my finger (!) on what it is. It's tone when amplified.

    The bridge p/up is a screamer and rocks. But who plays an L5 on the bridge p/up???

    The neck p/up seems very dark, and when I boost the table on the amp, and the Mid control, it does get brighter, but there is always this annoying
    veil of midrange. Sounds blanketed. It chokes off any sweetness, and that also dulls the snap of the strings. With different strings, and in different amps!

    This is the best I can do to describe the problem. I have a few other guitars that sound better in those regards, and are more of a joy to play.
    I have adjusted the p/up up and down, pole pieces too, and i have even rotated the p/up around.

    I think it's just a dull pickup, or a case of a low resistance pot. It's a 1981 model.

    Is it time for a Seth Lover p/up to let it sing? I want a brighter sweeter neck tone, like many other smooth jazz players have, Norman Brown, Paul Jackson Jr. George Benson, to name a few. I think an L5 CES can do it.

    Help??

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  3. #2

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    Some folks probably won't dig this, but have you considered graphic or parametric EQ?

  4. #3

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    No, I haven't. Maybe a good point! I am just so used to plugging in and getting very useable tones from diff. guitars into diff. amps. But, the p/up just seems lifeless, no matter how I dial in the amp. Treble from 10 to 0, mids up and down, bass on or off. Big changes yes, but still lacking some snap.

  5. #4

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    Have you tried a mix, with the "screamer" dosing in some treble end on less than full power? Depending on pots, the right dose may be hard to find.

  6. #5

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    Unless there is an unusual problem it shouldnt be dark... I mean: a les paul or a 335 are darker sounding guitars. The L-5 should be sweet but brighter due to the resonance and big box and also the longer scale brings up more harmonics. The lack of snapiness is common in 12s and higher caliber strings.
    Did you compare it to another humbuckered guitars?

    Enviado desde mi LG-H870 mediante Tapatalk

  7. #6

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    Probably a 300k volume pot where a 500k should be...

  8. #7

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    On every two pickup guitar I have, I adjust the neck pickup height for tone (not output), and after I get it where I want it, I adjust the bridge pickup to match / balance with the neck pickup. Sounds like maybe your pickups are too high.

  9. #8

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    It's worth looking at the pots & caps. I had a problem with my volume pot in my 2015 L5CES and replaced the whole wiring harness with one from Jackson Electronic Luthier. The whole sound and tone of the guitar is now tremendously improved, to my ear. The harness arrived fully assembled. All I had to do was pull out the old one, solder the pickup leads in their correct spots, and install the new harness.

  10. #9

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    AS I have said, I have played with p/up adjustment, high and then low, pole pieces too. I have mixed in the bridge p/up too.

    Neither of those avenues have relieved me of the congested tone.

    So yes, Lawson, I think the volume pot value deserves scrutiny, if I can find a way to measure it without disassembly!!!

    Other than that, I think a p/up swap is in order.

  11. #10

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    Since you have an '80's L5, maybe you have an old T-Top 490R or Shaw pickup in there. Most likely it's a 490R (Rhythm/Neck). The 490T (Treble/Bridge) p'up sounds strong and great for rock. And that's how you've described the bridge tone.

    Nothing wrong with those p'ups, but some folks do not like their tone. And from your description, you might benefit from another pickup in the neck position. Seth Lover, Classic 57, Throbak, etc. all are great PAF type pickups that should work. Keep us posted.

  12. #11

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    Good point. Could it be something as simple as pulling the pup to verify what's in there? If it is a 490R, it seems like the 80's were like the wild west of installing anything in those guitars.

    OP, are you the original owner? Are you able to pull the pup to verify it?

  13. #12

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    How does one verify this? I have a 490R in my ES165 but it has no marking, even has the PAF sticker. Gibson is funny about not identifying the pickups in some guitars. The MHS Humbuckers have no identifying marking that I know of.

    If there is some obscure hidden way to know, I'd love to hear it.

  14. #13

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    Perhaps I should have said "attempt" to verify. Maybe since the guitar is an 80's build the pup could be identifiable?

  15. #14

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    As would I. And how to measure a pot's value without deconstruction! I am an avid reader of guitar tech stuff on the web, and have been around long enough to know that the 490 p/ups are not many people's faves. And yet, they still appear in some recent guitars (my friend just bought a LP studio with them in it - and they were plucked out as quickly as possible for some Lindy Fralins).

    So, while my L5 has many beautiful qualities, I will pursue this electronic maze.

  16. #15

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    Jimmy, if the issue is that you don't like the neck pickup, then it makes sense to have it replaced. I agree that Gibson pickups are almost impossible to identify without removing the cover and checking the Kohm.

    490R's tend to measure close to 8k to 8.5k. 498T (I incorrectly called it 490T) measure a much hotter 13 to 14k.

    AlNico2 magnets are in the 490R, and an AlNico 5 in the 498T.

    The Gibson 57 Classic and Seth Lovers have AlNico2 magnets.

  17. #16

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    Classic 57's do have the "patent applied for" sticker.

  18. #17

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    I'd look elsewhere for a solution other than the neck pickup. Do you have a TOM bridge on it? When was last time you had the saddle pieces looked at? Is the TOM damping the strings? Switch it out for a stainless steel Callaham TOM bridge perhaps?

    The bridge pickup always sounds relatively bright because of its position close to the bridge. The neck pickup shows up more tonal variations.

    Given the age of the original 1981 TOM and the soft zinc alloy, I am just guessing that it is sagging in the middle and damping the strings to create this congested veiled midrange sound. If you can, try borrowing a Tech21 Q/Strip or Empress ParaEQ pedal.

    I would be hesitant to rip out the 81 humbucker or pots. The TOM sags over the decades and sometimes folk just don't notice it.

    Just my ha'p'orth worth of opinion.

    Callaham Vintage Guitars and Parts (Callaham CNC Machined Steel Billet ABR-1 tun-o-matic bridge )

  19. #18

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    Heck, if the TOM is the issue I've got a brand new Gibson TOM around here somewhere. I'd give it to you!

  20. #19

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    The bridge is not the original, it is circa 2005.

  21. #20

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    With a kind of shelf or plateau on the tone, I am wondering if it's a capacitor issue? It's a more invasive fix, but a different capacitor, or a treble bleed circuit, or a change in the wiring (traditional vs modern) could be involved too.

    If there are issues in the wiring affecting the tone, a pickup change won't fully address it, I wouldn't think.

  22. #21

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    With the tone control on 10 volume control on 10 the capacitor is in effect out of the circuit. It's a passive circuit so I would doubt that the capacitor would have failed. He has stated that his pickup is too dark. Remember also with the "modern" wiring the volume control being lower does add some treble bleed. That is something that I strugle with on my L-5 at practice volumes.

  23. #22

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    Change the caps, bridge, jack and the knobs, walk and drive making only left turns, glue aluminum foil inside the git.

    Seriously, Your L5 likely has 57 classic pups. If you haven't sorted out the issue a cheap and easy test is to try replacing the A2 magnet with an A5.

    I did just the reverse on a SD "Jazz" pup which was too bright and focused with the A5 and replaced it with an A2 which mellowed it out nicely.

  24. #23

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    Have you tried other amps? Other guitars in the current amp? Sometimes a particular guitar and amp are a good pairing and other times, they're not. Is there a local shop with a good vintage collection where you could A/B your L-5 against some others with other amps?

    If it's a tube amp, when's the last time you retubed? What about cleaning pots? Trying a different cord?

    I think you said earlier that you are just a "one guitar, one cord, into the amp" guy, but if there is ANY pedal in the signal chain, try pulling it out.

    For years I played with an EB vol pedal, usually in the FX loop, as a way to have hands-free control of overall volume (not gain) and for the occasional swell/fade-in effect. Not till it started getting scratchy and I took it out of the signal path to clean it did I notice that it caused a subtle dampening of really high-end treble and/or presence (in a good way, actually).

    So the takeaway advice here is to make sure it's really the guitar that you don't like the sound of, instead of something else... like old, dead strings? :-)

    Apologies if this is just obvious and not applicable.

  25. #24

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    You might me able to read the pot's value with a dentist mirror through the f-hole (but usually wiring and solder is in te way).

    How does it sound with the volume pot fully open? (Dime your amp's volume.)

  26. #25

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    Sorry but for me a guitar that routinely costs $5000 to $10000 and you can’t just plug in and be thrilled beyond expectations with the sound (and everything else) is just not something I would subject myself to.