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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Even as Crazy as I am,especially about chasing gear. This is past the Mark of any use. Especially since the guys who are so anal about this don't even gig !

    It reminds me of the old audiophiles who buy a record of a snare drum to show off their system,lol!
    There is a difference between being anal about it and recognising that not every strat sounds the same and their construction material has something to do with it.

    Anyway people who don't agree with me don't even gig. How do I know? Same source as yours

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    This is not a published research. It seems like an undergraduate project titled "Self study". Nevertheless conclusion of this thesis does not seem to suggest that it's a psychoacoustic phenomena. It says it found differences in tone, suggest further research to evaluate how well they could be heard (last sentence of the conclusion):


    "Even though this study did find differences in timbre, it would be useful to research whether or not one couldactually hear the difference. Such research is outside the scope of this study; however, measuringthe ability of one to perceive these differences is necessary to evaluate how different two timbresmust be before they can be perceived as different. "
    Sorry I did not write it clearly, this unpublished (but accepted) graduation thesis is not about wood timbre differences being a psychoacoustic phenomenon (I remember reading those kind of experiments but I can't point to them). It does show however multiple methodological problems with such comparisons that allege clear, predictable and consistent differences between different body wood types in the production of magnetoelectrically amplified sound. The fact that there are differences in strings of different pitch and the amplitudes in the graphs in addition to knowing that even the same wood species can vary widely in terms of density, flexibility, moisture content etc. convinces me not to regard the wood type as an important determinant of electrically produced sound of the guitar. I already know you are not convinced and I don't aim to change that. I just want to save myself time, energy and money (and to help others do the same). Pickup height adjustments, string changes, playing style, downstream EQ all cause much more drastic change in the sound than the aforementioned wood differences IMO.

  4. #53

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    Well being 63 and a Pro Musician you get to meet many in the Wannabe Tribe of Music. They used to bring a piece of gear,usually something quite expensive or rare to have myself or some other guitarist try out on the gig.
    Some times it was fun, but mostly didn't help the music or performance at all.

    Anyway I hope you find the guitar that ticks all of your boxes!

  5. #54

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    “You might say you can only fool yourself...” (Little Feat)

  6. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well being 63 and a Pro Musician you get to meet many in the Wannabe Tribe of Music. They used to bring a piece of gear,usually something quite expensive or rare to have myself or some other guitarist try out on the gig.
    Some times it was fun, but mostly didn't help the music or performance at all.

    Anyway I hope you find the guitar that ticks all of your boxes!
    Interesting,you've never met gigging musicians who focus on their tones a lot and fuss over various nuances of their gear and how things affect their tone. I've met plenty.

    But I'm not like that personally. If I'm not happy with my sound at a gig, it never comes down to the material of the instrument. It's usually something more obvious and crude like not cutting and being heard or bass getting too boomy or highs harsh etc.

    But that was never the context of this gear thread. I appreciate if people make their points without trying to imply that those who don't agree with them are inferior musicians.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-28-2020 at 07:50 PM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    There is a difference between being anal about it and recognising that not every strat sounds the same and their construction material has something to do with it.

    Anyway people who don't agree with me don't even gig. How do I know? Same source as yours
    That's right. This is still a matter of subjectivity, and discussion is allowed. And it seems meet to say here that I've enjoyed our back and forth; it's given me some things to chew on.

  8. #57

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    It's not about superior or inferior musicianship per se. It's about espousing knowledge that has no application to the purpose of music in this case.
    I get that it's good to investigate gear, I'm living proof of Gearaholic syndrome.
    GAS for short,LOL!

    There probably isn't a newer or vintage Gibson or Fender, that I've owned at some point in time. Same with amps pedals etc. And over the years I've had the luxury of making a living using these various tools on stage and or studio.

    But what works for me may not be your cup of tea. And arguing tonewood down to its molecular structure,while somewhat interesting is overkill imo.
    After All it's for the music that we search out woods,pickups,etc.

    Just saying good to have discussions but keep it in perspective in playing Actual music with others. After All this why we try all this stuff!

  9. #58

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    I have a Squier Telecaster classic Vibe 50s. It is made of pine. It was sounding great until I read this thread.

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I have a Squier Telecaster classic Vibe 50s. It is made of pine. It was sounding great until I read this thread.
    I wouldn't give up on it so easily just because every Tele may not sound exactly the same. It might be a great one.

  11. #60

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    No matter how great any tool may be it comes down to how well someone knows how to use it! Great Tele tones are on many records both famous and not.And used from Tommy Tedesco, Bobby Womack, Louis Shelton, Roy Buchanon, Danny Gatton, James Burton, Roy Nichols, Vince Gill, Ed Bickert, Denny Diaz, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, even Brian May!

  12. #61

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    Not entirely apropos, but this thread brings this story to mind.

    There's a local music store, specializing in guitars, which had a concert series. They did a nice job with it. High quality PA. We got 8 players on the stage. Seating for 40 or so. Nice gig.

    I played it with my Yamaha Pacifica 012, a guitar they probably wouldn't let in the door. It sold for $179 new, in a kit with guitar, bag, amp, cable and book. The definition of a beginner's instrument. They're on CL all the time for around $75.

    I heard that the store guys made fun of my guitar to the bandleader, something along the lines of "why do have that guy playing that piece of crap?". The leader said, "how'd he sound?". They said,"he sounded good".

    Sometime later, I discussed it with one of them. I told him that my Yamaha had a quality, important to me, that no guitar in his shop could match. He had no idea what it was.

    I pointed out that the Yamaha had a thinner neck, in every dimension, than any guitar he sold. And, because I have arthritis in my hands, the Yamaha is the right tool for the job, for me.

    I comped with the neck pickup (a Lil 59). The guitar sat in the mix nicely. No boomy lows, which can make a mess with piano and bass. And, I processed the signal for solos enough that it's hard to tell what guitar is being used.

    Since then, I made some progress with managing my arthritis and I usually gig with a Comins GCS-1, but I still sometimes bring the Yamaha. The neck of the Yamaha is the most comfortable of any guitar I've played. Obviously, tastes vary and, I think, the majority of jazz players would prefer something else.

    I guess the point is that it's hard to simply focus on the sound and playability and ignore all the shiny-object attributes.

  13. #62

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    I like this thread...It shows the human condition..why we agree/disagree and will even bet on the difference..though there may not be any that matters..

    to record an actual difference the many factors that may produce the difference have to be recognized and agreed upon in the EXACT same way..

    so if two persons are going to judge the sound...the most basic instruments have to be the same..that is the "hearing" of the two persons..

    just as our eyes and other senses may be very different from each other..our preception peramiters may differ greatly on their abilities to see..hear..taste smell and feel..

    so to be accurate you would have two people who have had their ears/hearing tested and the results are as close to the same as possible

    now..to illustrate..these two are going to listen to ONE guitar in a very controlled environ..(much like a "clean room" for sound)
    and then asked specific questions to describe what they have heard...now given this kind of setting..on the face ot the testing..
    would you expect the two answers to be ..identical..somewhat identical/slightly different..very different...

    and then compare..TWO guitars..with the same wood..and then with different wood...with all other aspects off both the guitars being as close to zero difference/if any as possible

    OK so you now have an almost "scientific controlled" study...so now the question is given the above ..how many think the two subjects will hear the difference in wood tones..??

    and if the difference is precieved...is it going to be a positive/negative factor on the nature/performance aspect of the guitar..that is would you choose one over the other based on the
    results of such testing...

    (BTW...the guys in marketing have a running bet..)

  14. #63
    So far in this thread there are 3 reports from people who have gone to huge lengths to eliminate all other factors. In all the videos there's been some attempt at eliminating some obvious interfering factors but I'm even gonna ignore the other videos for now. The two of the videos and one paper (thanks medblues ) are results of some good common-sensical affords.
    I'll post the videos again for convenience.

    HERE is the interesting part. All 3 attempts seems to have come from people who were skeptical at best that there would be a difference. It's almost like they were actually set out to prove that there wouldn't be a difference. In one of the videos, the person is in the business of building guitars from scrapwoods and has direct financial interest in proving that there is no difference between the expensive woods and scrapwoods (second video). Also note that his method actually underestimates the differences as part of the body wood where the bridge and pickups are attached (at least third of the mass) is the same in all guitars. Perceived differences are caused only by the rest of wood that swapped in and out.


    ALL three of them found differences. In the videos you can hear the differences even without being in the room. May be these don't constitute ultimate proof but way better than just providing hand waving arguments (which is the only counter case I've seen on this subject). They provide enough evidence I think that one cannot simply dismiss the claim.





    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-29-2020 at 05:59 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    I like this thread...It shows the human condition..why we agree/disagree and will even bet on the difference..though there may not be any that matters..

    to record an actual difference the many factors that may produce the difference have to be recognized and agreed upon in the EXACT same way..

    so if two persons are going to judge the sound...the most basic instruments have to be the same..that is the "hearing" of the two persons..

    just as our eyes and other senses may be very different from each other..our preception peramiters may differ greatly on their abilities to see..hear..taste smell and feel..

    so to be accurate you would have two people who have had their ears/hearing tested and the results are as close to the same as possible

    now..to illustrate..these two are going to listen to ONE guitar in a very controlled environ..(much like a "clean room" for sound)
    and then asked specific questions to describe what they have heard...now given this kind of setting..on the face ot the testing..
    would you expect the two answers to be ..identical..somewhat identical/slightly different..very different...

    and then compare..TWO guitars..with the same wood..and then with different wood...with all other aspects off both the guitars being as close to zero difference/if any as possible

    OK so you now have an almost "scientific controlled" study...so now the question is given the above ..how many think the two subjects will hear the difference in wood tones..??

    and if the difference is precieved...is it going to be a positive/negative factor on the nature/performance aspect of the guitar..that is would you choose one over the other based on the
    results of such testing...

    (BTW...the guys in marketing have a running bet..)
    And even at the end of it all, the two witnesses will still be reduced to using very subjective language to describe their individual listening experiences. There is no way around that brute fact -- that the appreciation of tone is incredibly individual.

    This is why I'm cool with folks speaking for themselves, but object to global pronouncements.

  16. #65

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    Hi Rlrhett,
    I can relate to what you say. I have only built one so far but the sound was a lot mellower than I expected and the bass not as crisp as I thought it might be from the tap tones I got from it all.

    But as you say it is a product of your own hands and you do get to love them. I like the tone that my first attempt came out with so in the end it doesn't really matter what it is made of. In the end it all boils down to the enjoyment you derive from it.

    I have Pau Ferro for the back and sides of my in progress D28 build with Sitka top. Technically that should give a tone sort of halfway between rosewood and ebony from what I have read so it will be interesting to see if that turns out to be the case. Like you say until the strings go on the jury is out on that one.

    Cheers
    Glenn