The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've been casually looking for a archtop. My ES-275 custom is cool no doubt but I'm thinking a fuller size archtop might give me a more woody sound (the 275 sounds kind of tinny through my 12 inch speaker Princeton Reverb, advice on that is gratefully accepted too lol, but maybe that is better in another post).

    Anyway I was lurking around on reverb and I saw a bunch of epiphone 175 premium guitars. They were from various sellers but all of them (except two) were either marked "used" or "2nd" on the back of the headstock. Now I have Heritage 535 marked as a B stock, but I bought that one in person, from a licensed Heritage dealer, while my luthier looked on. Do the labels "Used" and "2nd" mean that there is a flaw in the instrument that caused the factory to reject it?

    The specs certainly check all boxes, 57 classics and everything.

    Also to be fair the sellers were clear and up front about it. The ones I looked at explained that the Epiphone factory sent these instruments to a "factory authorized refurbisher" were they found no flaws, but they marked out the serial numbers and engraved 2nd or USED on the headstock, to avoid warranty fraud. And these sellers bought the instruments from the refurbishers.

    Does that sound legit? My be-careful-o-meter perked up. Would you risk buying a 2nd, or USED guitar over the interwebs?

    Another seller on Reverb claims to have two NEW ones. However this seller is in Zurich. What are the pitfalls if any of buying a guitar from another country to Texas?

    I appreciate any advice, thanks ladies and gentlemen!

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Fingers
    Do the labels "Used" and "2nd" mean that there is a flaw in the instrument that caused the factory to reject it?
    No, not necessarily. In the case of these Epi Premiums many were simply returned to the store, or manufacturer. Dealers were forced to stamp those guitars as used to void any warranty on them. These are still very good guitars. They're as close as one will get to an ES175.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    No, not necessarily. In the case of these Epi Premiums many were simply returned to the store, or manufacturer. Dealers were forced to stamp those guitars as used to void any warranty on them. These are still very good guitars. They're as close as one will get to an ES175.
    Not to derail my own thread lol, but what are the differences between the Epi and Gibson models? At least this version seems to have the same woods. I can and will continue to do my own research, just wondering. Thanks!

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Fingers
    Not to derail my own thread lol, but what are the differences between the Epi and Gibson models? At least this version seems to have the same woods. I can and will continue to do my own research, just wondering. Thanks!
    Feast your eyes upon the epi premium and zephyr thread...lots of premiums there...6 pages worth. They discuss the differences there.

    Check with member lawson-stone. He owns both the epi premium and several es175's.

    Epiphone ES-175 Owners Club

  6. #5

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    The guitars like these that have the “used” stamp in the back of the headstock have typically come through a company in TN called MIRC (Musical Instrument Reclamation Corporation). These instruments have been bought from the manufacturer by MIRC, and as 2bop said are marked so that there is no confusion that they do not carry a manufacturer warranty. Typically they have a cosmetic flaw, often very small. MIRC is supposed to inspect them and give them a clean bill of health for playability before they go out.

    Occasionally, they get unusual things like prototypes. Some of them are almost comical in the simple mistakes. I actually had one guitar in my possession that was a prototype with an elaborate fretboard inlay that looked impeccably done, except for the fact that it was upside down.

    Anyway, normally these are perfectly fine guitars, but they have a somewhat lesser street value.

  7. #6

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    Zurich is Switzerland that might mean import taxes, customs handling and high shipping cost. Swiss addresses are sometimes a pro forma address. Yes or no depends on your trust in the seller. I would only do it if they offer reasonable return conditions. Ask them a few questons to find out more about the guitar - and more about how they are to communicate with. You might ask them them why it it a factory 2nd and what the issue is. Also, if you even remotely consider something to sell on if you dont like it, resale value might be low on such items which have a stamp on them.
    But, to me: no return = no deal.

  8. #7

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    The good news? I never hesitate to buy used music equipment, as long as I get a deal and it's in good condition. No way will I ever buy used at new prices! My rule of thumb is pay no more than 60% of the price of new.

    The bad news? I would never ever buy a guitar without trying it out first. Amps? Maybe. Pedals? Maybe. Guitars? No way.

  9. #8

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    Whatever you save by buying a "2nd" you give back when you sell it.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by teeps
    Zurich is Switzerland that might mean import taxes, customs handling and high shipping cost. Swiss addresses are sometimes a pro forma address. Yes or no depends on your trust in the seller. I would only do it if they offer reasonable return conditions. Ask them a few questons to find out more about the guitar - and more about how they are to communicate with. You might ask them them why it it a factory 2nd and what the issue is. Also, if you even remotely consider something to sell on if you dont like it, resale value might be low on such items which have a stamp on them.
    But, to me: no return = no deal.
    The one for sale in Zurich is the one being sold as brand new on Reverb.

  11. #10
    Problem with buying from another country is if you need to return it's far more difficult.
    Plus you might have taxes to pay to get it in the first place.
    Plus I would consider a guitar quite delicate and having it shipped halfway across the world is not ideal, especially when considering the other drawbacks.

  12. #11

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    There are plenty of those for sale on this side of the pond. I'd not go overseas in an attempt to purchase one. But that's just me.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by nopedals
    Whatever you save by buying a "2nd" you give back when you sell it.
    True. But if it is a very nice sounding '2nd', my advise would be, don't sell it.

    During the 80s I purchased a new ES-175 that was a 2nd. The issue was with the finish and some other minor visual flaws, that didn't impact the sound.

    Still have it and play it often.

  14. #13
    The only reason the listing in Zurich piqued my interest was that it is a brand new instrument, not buying someone else's problem, but shipping alone is over 300$. I appreciate the advice, maybe its a trap best avoided.

  15. #14

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    Europe-based sellers tend to bake part or all the VAT or MwSt or EU taxes that they had paid for the guitar into their used prices. I don't blame them but for some buyer based outside of the EU he or she is "paying tax" on a guitar that the seller tries to reclaim.

    Importing any guitar into the USA means filing the proper CBP import forms. "Seconds" are like any used guitar to me. Cosmetic defects don't bother me but watch out that they are not structural. I had my eye on a 2006 Ebony Ivory Gibson L7C from the Gibson Custom Shop. Trouble was a slight twist in the neck that required compression refretting and possibly replaning of the fretboard. Often regretted not getting it.

  16. #15

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    Importing from another country can be a hassle depending on which country you live in. I live in Denmark and have several times imported guitars from US - largely because I had no other choice given the poor availability of archtops in Denmark.

    The process of ordering is not complicated, but one has to add shipping costs on top of the price of the guitar and ( in my case if imported from outsiode the EU) also customs and VAT. Note that VAT is calculated from the sum of price + shipping + plus customs. As a crude rule of thumb, I multiply by a factor 1.5 to get an estimate of the expected final cost. That's with the 25% VAT we have in Denmark, so your cost may vary.

    From what I have read, the CITES regulations can cause serious problems when trying to import musical instruments into the US - in worst case even confiscation. If i lived in US I wouldn't risk that, given the great number of instruments of all kinds available in US.

    Then there's the risk of damage during transport. I always chose shipping with full insurance, but even then being fully compensated in case of accidents can be a problem and lawsuits across country borders is not for amateurs. And often the driver leaves packets on the doorstep, visible for each and every thief instead of ringing the door bell. I always cross my fingers until the guitar has arrived safely and in good shape.

    But I guess not all guitars are equally fragile. I have a Squier CV Tele on the way from Thomann in Germany for a project I have in mind. I expect the guitar to survive the rigours of transport. But of course, in case of a road accident, a Tele can cause serious harm to the UPS driver and/or the van.

  17. #16

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    If the guitar has rosewood then check the current CITES import/export requirements for BOTH buyer and seller's countries. If seller ships a guitar without proper CITES permits then buyer might not be able to return the guitar if buyer needs to obtain an export permit to get the guitar back to seller's country (buyer's country will not issue an export permit for a guitar improperly imported and seller's country may confiscate the guitar if buyer try's to export without proper documentation). Don't assume your country will catch an improperly documented guitar. Also beware that PayPal only allows 10 days to return a guitar once a return is authorized and it can take up to 90 days to get a CITES export permit - rendering returns pointless if using PayPal.

    Unfortunately there are unscrupulous scammers out there who know they can dump damaged gear on an unsuspecting buyer fully confident the buyer will not be able to legally return the guitar to seller's country.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    If the guitar has rosewood then check the current CITES import/export requirements for BOTH buyer and seller's countries. If seller ships a guitar without proper CITES permits then buyer might not be able to return the guitar if buyer needs to obtain an export permit to get the guitar back to seller's country (buyer's country will not issue an export permit for a guitar improperly imported and seller's country may confiscate the guitar if buyer try's to export without proper documentation). Don't assume your country will catch an improperly documented guitar. Also beware that PayPal only allows 10 days to return a guitar once a return is authorized and it can take up to 90 days to get a CITES export permit - rendering returns pointless if using PayPal.
    I just checked up on it. The CITES regulation was eased for musical instruments near the end of 2019. Check this link out: CITES Rosewood Restrictions on Musical Instruments Have | Reverb News

    Rosewood is now permitted EXCEPT Brazilian Rosewood. Some other species than rosewood used in musical instruments such as Bubinga are also still under CITES regulation. Real mother of pearl and abalone is also still banned. It is not clear to me me from the link how one is to prove that the rosewood in a guitar is not Brazilian and that the guitar does not contain other banned species - or if it has to be proved. But it seems that the US authorities no longer offers or requires those hated CITES certificates for individual musical instruments which took so long time to get. How other countries, among them the EU, will handle the new rules is also unclear to me, but the worst reports of troubles for shippers/carriers of musical instruments was from the US and we have not felt the rules that much in Europe. An exception was a Japanese violinist who had her Stradivarius violin confiscated in Germany and only got it back several months later after a tough top end lawyer firm was put on the case. As late as a week ago I ordered a guitar neck from Warmoth (in US) and for me living in Europe it was not possible to order it with real MOP fretboard markers.

    Whatever, it still seems to be a good idea to check with the authorities is both the export and the import country to see if there will be any problems importing a guitar.

  19. #18

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    I'm from Europe.
    So if I buy guitar from USA.
    That must be an offer that no one could refuse. XD
    Other then that, no.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Fingers
    Do the labels "Used" and "2nd" mean that there is a flaw in the instrument that caused the factory to reject it?
    Well, do actually they sell Grade "B" meats at the supermarket?

    Common sense tells you a guitar is less than perfect if it's been pulled aside and marked to warn potential owners.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Well, do actually they sell Grade "B" meats at the supermarket?

    Common sense tells you a guitar is less than perfect if it's been pulled aside and marked to warn potential owners.
    Yes they do; there are 3 grades; Prime, Choice, Select; Choice would be grade 'b'.

    If a guitar is 'perfect' sounding but less than perfect looking, that doesn't matter to me (same with a car, or a fishing rod).

    It all comes down to how what matter to each of us in terms of how one defines 'perfect'.

  22. #21

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    Having lived in three countries in the last decade, i have a lot of experience with shipping and importing guitars. Eventually I said no more. It ups both the risk factor and the pain-in-the-ass factor substantially. That doesn't mean it never works but the odds of a problem are much higher.

  23. #22

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    I bought a 2018 Ibanez LGB30 that was listed as "remanufactured".

    The seller specialized in "remanufactured" guitars and had this listing, and others, on both eBay and Reverb. The seller accepted my offered of $700 with free shipping and no tax.

    The guitar arrived well packed. Included was the case and Ibanez documentation. The only things missing were the optional wood bridge and two seriel numbers that had been scratched off the factory label. A sticker with a new seriel# had been loosely adhered to the factory lable. It was not otherwise identified as a 2nd or remanufactured.

    I could find no flaws in fit or finish nor could I find any structural flaws. Plays and sounds great. I suspect, but do not know, that sometimes manufactures use the "remanufactured" outlet as a way to unload unsold guitars.

    As always, caveat emptor, but I thought I would share my experience.