string rattles behind fretted note help?

[TommyD]

Of all those Rube Goldberg contraptions, the buzznut looks best. It's cheap, seems to work well and is instantaneously deactivated. I like it even better than my cockamamie piece of chamois. But I think I'll spend the 12 bucks on a six pack and continue on with the TommyD cockamamiechamois.
Today I tried a piece of sponge pressed in under the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece. Result? Nada. Nula. Zip.
One thing I do know; I hate Gibson's brass Tunamatic bridge! Today I removed it and put on an old teak saddle I had lying around. Now all I need is a teak or ebony tailpiece and a way to install it without leaving screw holes in my gee-tar from the brass monstrosity that's there now.

[randyc]

cool but how about those personal Tal conversations, chapter and verse please

thanks,
randyc

PS: liked the youtube link - that guy is GOOD. Particularly since he's playing in a vacuum, so to speak. Tal Farlow + Tommy Flanagan ... well THAT was in another universe.

[Michael Lewis]

As often, "after buzz" may be uneven frets, string too low in nut, or a resonance somewhere else that you think is between the fretted note and the nut. The clearances for many electric guitars are so small that even a minute irregularity can cause problems. If indeed it is the string rattling against the frets the first thing to check is the evenness of the fret tops, and if they are good then it is probably the nut slot being too low. Not rocket science but you have to pay attention.

In my opinion filling a nut slot with CA or epoxy is only a temporary measure, as I have seen some fall out and others deteriorate. I would not have confidence in a fill unless it is the dental UV cure material, which is high tech and can be fiddly to deal with, expensive, and hard to find.
Removing the nut and placing a thin shim under it is a reliable remedy, a new nut is best.

[TommyD]

cool but how about those personal Tal conversations, chapter and verse please

thanks,
randyc

PS: liked the youtube link - that guy is GOOD. Particularly since he's playing in a vacuum, so to speak. Tal Farlow + Tommy Flanagan ... well THAT was in another universe.

One of my four brothers is a jazz musician (bass and later piano, which he studied all his life) and he played with a lot of great players and singers, and from time to time would bring them home. With seven kids in our house we always had a houseful of guests who would come for a visit and end up bunking in for days or weeks. My mother was a great pie baker and cook and would feed them all, filling up their plates, which they would eat like it was their first meal. She loved that!
Tal was one such, as were Bill Comstock and Kenny Albers of Four Freshmen fame, some vibes players I can't remember, some really good classical pianists, a few horn players (Kenny Albers played trumpet and believe it or not, bass!) - so I met Tal early in life, and as luck would have it I had a guitar, and luckier still, Tal was the nicest guy in the world, always ready to play some tunes with my brother playing piano, or teach me a chord or two on guitar. His Gibson "Tal Farlow" guitar is interesting because of all the guys who had guitars designed for them he was the only one who actually played the one that Gibson made to his specs, and used it professionally for years. I am sorry as hell that I didn't take the opportunity then to get a T.F. Gibson back when. Of all the ringy-overtone and feedback-prone Gibsons, the T.F. is not one of them. It has a unique sound - solid, dark and dense, just like Tal's playing. You can hear it well on that link above.
One night I was in Billy Kretchmer's "Jam Session" on Ranstead Street in Phila, where Tal was appearing. He was playing with an all-star group. I only remember Hank Jones and Slam Stewart (I'm foggy on this). When he came down off the stand he came over to sit with me and said, "I want you to sit in." Of course I refused. Like, I should follow Tal Farlow and play with a band whose shoes I couldn't polish. When I refused in embarrassment, he insisted. He said, "I promised your brother Rich that I would make you sit in, Tom. Come on!" But I was adamant. And embarrassed as hell in front of my date. (P.S. I didn't. And when I saw my brother I reamed him out for suggesting it to Tal.)
After I grew up I sort of lost track of Tal in the chase for a career in Medicine. I moved to NYC, where one night he was appearing in the village and I went down to see him. During an intermission I ventured up to say "Hi". I wasn't sure he would remember me, so I was tentative.
I started to say, "Er.....Tal? I'm. . ." He looked up, put out his hand, smiled, and said, "Hi Tom!" How are you? How's your brother John? Is Richard still playing?" Like he'd seen me the day before yesterday. He remembered every detail of our family, our old Delaware River house, and my mother. Amazing!
He went on to tell me about his latest invention - a counter stool (He always favored playing on a high stool.) that had his amp built into it under the seat. His speaker was separate, or he could use his amp and the club's speakers. A neat idea. He showed me how he only had to reach under his seat to change settings on the amp. Carry your stool into the club, you've got your amp. How neat is that?
That night, he invited me down to Sea Bright, where he lived. It's down around Red Bank NJ on the coast. We kept up our friendship until he died of esophageal CA in New York's Memorial Hospital. I really love the guy. He was a sweet soul and a musical genius into the bargain. There'll never be another like him.
There's a one-hour videotape called "Talmage Farlow" about his life and work, probably available online. It's great and a must-have for T.F. fans.
Tom/

[randyc]

Yes, I've watched the video three times, it is at our local library. Thanks for the reminiscence, nice memories of a special guy!

[Meggy]

As often, "after buzz" may be uneven frets, string too low in nut, or a resonance somewhere else that you think is between the fretted note and the nut. The clearances for many electric guitars are so small that even a minute irregularity can cause problems. If indeed it is the string rattling against the frets the first thing to check is the evenness of the fret tops, and if they are good then it is probably the nut slot being too low. Not rocket science but you have to pay attention.

In my opinion filling a nut slot with CA or epoxy is only a temporary measure, as I have seen some fall out and others deteriorate. I would not have confidence in a fill unless it is the dental UV cure material, which is high tech and can be fiddly to deal with, expensive, and hard to find.
Removing the nut and placing a thin shim under it is a reliable remedy, a new nut is best.

I'm pretty certain that the buzzes I've described are indeed between the fretted note and the nut, as I say, on the bass E string. On certain chords I can easily stop them by damping the string with my thumb. However, I think you are basically right in your point about the small tolerances involved. Like a lot of guitarists, I probably do go for a very low action, which makes these kind of issues more likely. Having done a little experimenting, I find I'm not very keen on the chamois idea - if I use enough damping to loose the buzz, then I do loose the open string more or less. So not for me... I have tended to prefer a neck setup with almost no bowing/relief, so a better way forward may be to put a little more bow in, and then adjust the action accordingly. Also, the nut may indeed be a fraction on the low cut side, so I could have this improved at some stage. Thanks again for all the advice and ideas though everybody!

[Michael Lewis]

The set up will be right when you make it right. Until then it will be nagging at you.

The mental concept of a laser straight fingerboard is nice but impractical in the real world, because the strings need at least a slight relief in the plane of the frets due to the space required for the string to vibrate. Getting actions down in this realm is where things get touchy and sensitive, and even slight changes can cause or remove a buzz or rattle. The closer the action the more critical the adjustments, almost like tuning a formula race car.

Also keep in mind that some guitars can get away with a lower action than most others, even others of the same model. This is due to differences in the individual pieces of wood they are made from. There are variations (density, stiffness, internal damping, etc) within each species of wood that can result in such differences in playability.

[Big Ron]

I got all involved in this dampener thing. Then it dawned on me that I own a string dampener already. It's called a capo. I suppose I was fortunate that my capo is an adjustable tension type. Mine is one of the G7 squeeze together and trip a trigger to release types. Anyway put it on the first fret (you are going to loose that fret anyway with a dampener) and squeeze it down untill you just get a thud out of picking an open string. If you squeeze it down to normal capo holding power you are shortening the neck one fret like a normal capo would be used. The idea is to just get it nice and snug. You can tell by playing the strings. We are looking for enough tension to not move about or fall off, but not enough to "fret" the strings on the first fret.

There you go - string dampening at it's finest, with a gizmo that you already have. the kind that rolls on the back of the neck and can be rolled up on the neck and back over the nut would probably work too.

Anyway I'm through searching for string dampeners, and my shop rag, hair schruntchie, rubber band, felt strip, foam strip, and $69 and $89 are still in my pocket. Announcing the new Big Ron G7 string dampener, available through your local music store, or just down in your guitar parts box for free.

Ron

[Meggy]

The set up will be right when you make it right. Until then it will be nagging at you.

The mental concept of a laser straight fingerboard is nice but impractical in the real world, because the strings need at least a slight relief in the plane of the frets due to the space required for the string to vibrate. Getting actions down in this realm is where things get touchy and sensitive, and even slight changes can cause or remove a buzz or rattle. The closer the action the more critical the adjustments, almost like tuning a formula race car.

Also keep in mind that some guitars can get away with a lower action than most others, even others of the same model. This is due to differences in the individual pieces of wood they are made from. There are variations (density, stiffness, internal damping, etc) within each species of wood that can result in such differences in playability.

Well, you will have to forgive me if it doesn't nag at me all that much! I do have two other guitars I like better anyway... But seriously, I think what you're saying IS correct, and I take your points on board. I'll try backing off a little on the truss rod and see where that gets me. In the longer term, I'm probably looking at having a new nut fitted and cut properly. The fret levelling on this guitar is good as it happens - it was done by Mansons (UK forum members will know who I'm talking about) before I bought the guitar off them. Also I think I probably have been a bit too obsessed with the whole low action thing! Thanks for your comments though.

I got all involved in this dampener thing. Then it dawned on me that I own a string dampener already. It's called a capo. I suppose I was fortunate that my capo is an adjustable tension type. Mine is one of the G7 squeeze together and trip a trigger to release types. Anyway put it on the first fret (you are going to loose that fret anyway with a dampener) and squeeze it down untill you just get a thud out of picking an open string. If you squeeze it down to normal capo holding power you are shortening the neck one fret like a normal capo would be used. The idea is to just get it nice and snug. You can tell by playing the strings. We are looking for enough tension to not move about or fall off, but not enough to "fret" the strings on the first fret.

There you go - string dampening at it's finest, with a gizmo that you already have. the kind that rolls on the back of the neck and can be rolled up on the neck and back over the nut would probably work too.

Anyway I'm through searching for string dampeners, and my shop rag, hair schruntchie, rubber band, felt strip, foam strip, and $69 and $89 are still in my pocket. Announcing the new Big Ron G7 string dampener, available through your local music store, or just down in your guitar parts box for free.

Ron

Cheers Ron - I have a capo too (from my early folk strumming days) sitting unused in a draw, so I may as well give your suggestion a go!

[Bill C]

Meggy

did the back buzz start after a change to different strings? I just ask because I read somewhere that it was possible to get lower action with flats than roundwounds - I don't know if this is relevant though ...

[Meggy]

Meggy

did the back buzz start after a change to different strings? I just ask because I read somewhere that it was possible to get lower action with flats than roundwounds - I don't know if this is relevant though ...

Now you mention it, some time ago I did move from 10's roundwound to 11's roundwound - so from a 46 to a 49 on the bass E string - this may indeed have had some effect, although it could be due to my setting the truss rod/action a little differently at the same time.

I have in fact noticed that it is possible to get my other guitars to show the same back buzz (to a lesser extent) by going to a very slight neck relief and lowish action. The guitar I originally mentioned though seems to require appreciably more neck bow to lose the buzz which is a bit annoying. They are all good quality guitars which have had the frets professionally levelled and dressed at some stage. I guess this may be down to the subtle differences in wood type and construction that ML talks about.

Also, I do agree about flats being easier to get a low action from too. I recently changed to a double roundwound on my archtop and have had to be a little careful to get the setup playing nicely. It did seem less critical with the flatwounds. Having said that, this guitar still plays great, and I like the new strings too, so it's not a problem for me.