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To me Beato’s main expertise is in using 100 words where one would have sufficed. I don’t think I have ever made it more than one tenth of the way through any of his videos.
In my job I often had to explain complex systems issues to very senior (and busy) people from our clients, you had about 1 minute max to get your point across or forget it. And I learned to be good at it. So I can’t take people like Beato seriously.
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04-07-2020 05:04 AM
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I was playing with Gibson flatwound 13s in 7th grade on a Firebird with high action. Some salesman at a music store told me these were the best strings.
My first guitar teacher gave me lessons on this guitar. He worked at the store that sold me the ridiculous strings. It was months later I learned that a bridge can be lowered and the truss rod straightened. Suddenly it was enjoyable to play.
A couple years later I got round wound 10s. It was a whole new world. I could bend strings.
Another year or so later I started studying jazz. The 13s flats came back on a Howard Roberts followed by other full sized archtops.
When it came time to gig and pay bills, jazz wasn't doing it. Rock and blues were. I used 10s and 9s with distortion, gain and crunch.
I don't remember arguing with guys about string gauge. I had no idea Jimmy Page used 7.5s. But we knew what sounded good.
It is decades later now. I find it interesting to hear an analysis of how gear works. Musicians who have been doing it a long time are often highly opinionated. Some are delusional. Some are even manic.
By luck, not skill or prowess, I have discussed the guitar business with Julius Bellson several times and Ted McCarty I believe once. I've certainly had uncountable conversations with others who designed and executed classic Gibson guitars, strings, amps and pickups. Their viewpoints were and are generally more practical than many others.
The introduction of semi-hollows and the Firebird, Flying V, and Explorer involved sessions much like were shown in the video. That helped determine pickup locations, pickup design, and probably more. Granted, they didn't use distortion then. Years later such a process was used with the development of Fuzzface.
I enjoyed the video for the nostalgia of it. They were guys in a room listening to tapes and making decisions on what sounded best. They were about the same ages as in the video I'm guessing.
I've mentioned this before. When Gibson ran out of hide glue they sometimes used Elmer's on those cherished early LPs that go for over $100K now. Ted McCarty told a young Pete Moreno to take cases, perhaps over a thousand pairs, of PAFs to the dump, which Pete did.
Over 50 years later there are these arguments about magnets, scatterwinding, pickup covers, and hide glue as being the secrets that made these great instruments sound so good. It's all fun but much of it doesn't stand up to analysis and certainly wasn't the thinking at the time.
I will comment on etiquette here. If you can't say something nice or helpful, don't say anything at all. If you didn't get anything from the video, that says more about you than the video. The same can be said about any experience in life. It is a metaphysical truth.
Perhaps someone would care to duplicate this same exercise with clean tones and progressive sets of Chromes. That might be more relevant to this group.
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I am considering getting some for kind of a stupid reason. I hate adjusting the truss rod on my guitars because I'm always afraid of breaking it. I usually leave that up to the guitar tech at my local shop, but because of Covid-19 they're closed. I recently purchased a Washburn J-600 and it came with some squeaky roundwounds, although I'm not sure what gauge they are. I'm thinking that if I get flatwounds of a similar gauge, either a set of 9s or 10s then the string tension will be relatively similar and I won't have to adjust the truss rod.
I noticed that La Bella goes as low as 0.009 - 0.039 and Thomastik and D'Addario offer 0.010s. The only experience I've ever had with flatwounds was D'Addario 11's on an old Carlo Robelli Es-175 copy, but I no longer have that guitar.
Would it be impossible to get a good jazz tone out of lighter gauge flatwounds?
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I have Thomastik 10´s on a tele. I think they sound great. Definitely an alternative for you.
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My 339 was delivered with 10's RW
I switched quickly to 11's FW
I never felt the need to adjust truss-rod.
But I think you should learn how to ajust it, it's not rocket science and it's good to have more autonomy on simple maintenance.
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A 'good jazz tone' is subjective....but due to hand problems I downsized to TI 11's this year. For my idea of a good jazz tone, I'd say that an 11 set is marginal, and needs some fattening up on the top strings via the amp. 12s are better, or possibly an 11 set with a 12 top E string. I'd say most players would have difficulty getting a conventionally 'good' jazz tone with 10s, although they might be fine for other styles.
It might be easier to get more comfortable with adjusting the truss rod; 11s or 12s shouldn't have a truss rod problem with any good guitar. The key to adjusting a truss rod is to take the load off the truss rod by pre-tensioning the neck, before adjusting the rod itself.
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I think it's good to get comfortable with doing basic guitar setups. Setting up the action and intonation should be seen like tuning the guitar. It's safe and easy.
Action adjustment (truss rod + saddle height) is also personal and it changes with humidity and strings (even with the same gauge sometimes). It's not like changing the frets. These adjustments are meant to be done by the "user".
Fender guitars come with a little manual that shows these adjustments on their guitars. In the manual, they actually encourage players not to fear doing them instead of taking the guitar to a tech every time.Last edited by Tal_175; 04-29-2020 at 09:41 AM.
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IMO the key to truss rod adjustments is to do it just a little bit at a time. I don't loosen or remove the strings, or anything else, I just do the adjustment so I can see what is happening. But it can take a long time to get to the final adjustment, depending on how much is needed. I make very small adjustments, a few degrees at a time, allow time for the neck to adjust to the new tension, and repeat as necessary. I never turn further than the amount it takes to go from the handle of the wrench hitting the G string to hitting the D, usually much less. I have broken one truss rod in my life, on a guitar that had been stored in a storm cellar for years and thus the truss rod had corroded very badly. For a well-maintained and stored guitar, that isn't often an issue.
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Home - EZ Guitar Tech
I'll share this basic site again. No need to see a tech for most simple adjustments. I use the specs and steps on this site to guide me as I tweak my guitars. Some of the specs are merely starting points to get in the ballpark and you can take it from there (pickup height for example). But I have found the relief and action specs to work great for all my Gibson archtops. Sharing for our mutual enjoyment.
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I mean slightly bending the neck backwards by using the left arm pressed against the back of the neck and the left hand gripping the upper neck, and exerting pressure by pushing the arm outwards, so that you can see the strings slightly deflect downwards, towards the fingerboard. It doesn't take much. At the same time, and with the other hand, adjust the truss rod in small increments with the truss rod key which you have already inserted over the nut or inside the hex nut.
Originally Posted by Durban
This is harder to describe than it is to do - it's pretty intuitive. It takes some pressure off the nut, and I find it especially useful in adjusting Gibson truss rods. In my opinion, Gibson brass truss rod nuts are particularly vulnerable to being chewed up over time by adjusting them under full string pressure, especially with heavy strings. Others will have their own methods, and that's fine.
Needless to say perhaps, NEVER pull the guitar head backwards to take pressure off the truss rod.
The alternative is that a good tech may insert the guitar in a neck jig, which serves the same purpose by taking pressure off the neck.
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What sgosnell said! Small incremental steps. You may be surprised at how little it takes to get you where you want to be. Leave the TRC off until you are done.
We can get a decent "jazz" tone with lighter strings - guys get "jazz" tones with all kinds of "tools" that I don't understand, but I will point out something I have encountered:
"THAT" jazz tone is subjective to you and all of us. How you pick and the resistance of the strings to your picking is determinant of the tone you will get. Soft picking vs. hard picking! Then, it's the guitar, action, bridge and tailpiece interacting too.
So, for me, one guitar is good with .10's, the next one .11's and the next one .12's. My L5 CES with 11's was ok for blues and jazz, but boy did it wake up with .12's. My Casino (fully hollow) was good with .10's for blues, but boy did it wake up with .11's (for blues) (and better for jazz).
You will have to experiment with guages of strings. Don't be afraid, it will be fun and educational.
But for me, I would rather adjust the TR a bit than use lightweight strings. And it's good for your fingers!
Enjoy.
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Flatwound strings of the same gauge as rounds will not produce the same weight in tension on the neck. I believe it a mistake to try to substitute what you (at least think) want for reasons of convenience. If it’s your only guitar, do what you have to in order to play, otherwise leave it in its case until it can be done correctly.
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Worked for Jim Hall. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
John Abercrombie used 10s or even 9s. IIRC Sco uses 10s as did Ed Bickert.
Light strings need a lighter touch, though, to avoid being "snappy." They have more overtones due to being more flexible. Heavier strings are stiffer and thus have less emphasis on overtones and a relatively stronger fundamental.
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Bingo! Originally Posted by Cunamara
Worked for Jim Hall. John Abercrombie used 10s or even 9s. IIRC Sco uses 10s as did Ed Bickert.
Light strings need a lighter touch, though, to avoid being "snappy." They have more overtones due to being more flexible. Heavier strings are stiffer and thus have less emphasis on overtones and a relatively stronger fundamental.
Too hard a touch on lighter strings produces increased anomalies of string motion during the leading milliseconds it takes to stabilize from attack to sustain - the strings' recovery from that into stable vibration is the snappy twangy sound.
Light strings can sound properly jazzy if played gently, especially with a medium or thicker pick held a little loosely, just turn up the amp a little.
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Never seen anyone pretensioning the neck when adjusting the truss. Just keep the strings on as usual and turn max 1/8th of a turn at a time. Hold down a string at 1st and 12th fret and look at 6th fret. You should see a gap between fret and string as wide as a businesscard.
The truss should be pretty easy to turn. If it feels like you need to use a lot of force, it may be a problem. Try loosening the strings in such a case. I had an old Martin once that needed the strings loose to adjust the truss.
Also make sure your tool fits the truss exactly.
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Exactly. I said 'most players'. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Worked for Jim Hall. John Abercrombie used 10s or even 9s. IIRC Sco uses 10s as did Ed Bickert.
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Anyway, I thought JH and EB used 11s.
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Me neither; almost every player I know is afraid to adjust the rod at all, which is why I thought it was useful to describe my approach. Originally Posted by frankhond
The pre-tensioning idea came from Dan Erlewine talking about his neck jig. But that's fine, if the majority prefer not to do it. To me,
it seems a lot easier than loosening strings.
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DR legend 11s have been pretty smooth in transition from 10 RWs for me, higher in tension by default but don't really feel like it.
They've been much looser than chromes anyway.
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I not only use flat wound 10's but on a conventional scale length, I tune them down by a minor third. I think I get a pretty good tone out of that set up. Thats what I'm using on this. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 04-29-2020 at 01:46 PM.
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i completely agree with this, having had Franz demonstrate this method to me some years ago , I have employed it ever since and haven’t the slightest concern at adjusting the Originally Posted by Franz 1997
truss rod or fear of breaking it.
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LOL, point. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
Exactly. I said 'most players'.
Anyway, I thought JH and EB used 11s.
Ed detailed his strings as 10-46 with a plain 3rd in a Guitar Player interview. RW, IIRC. I may be misremembering with Jim, and 10s might have just been at the end of his career.
Also bear scale length in mind- Jim used 24 3/4 and Ed used 25 1/2. Rule of thumb is that a gauge lighter feels about the same on the longer scale.
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Jim, I think you get a great tone, consistent with your unusually clear and sustaining style. It is a 'good ' tone, as you say. But with respect, I wouldn't call it it Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
a " conventional jazz tone', which would tend to be thicker/ fatter and maybe with less sustain. And as far as I can remember from the OP,
that was what he was asking about.
Anyway, it's all getting a bit hair-splitting; I'm calling it a day.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to get anyone upset. Perhaps I underestimate how much my sound varies from conventional jazz tone. To me, it just always sounds like me. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
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mid-ranginess?
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