Godin 5th Avenue

**neatomic** · 12-23-2018, 09:23 PM

^ hah..yeah of course..i thought of beloved gretsch right away too...but really the smooth design is a plus!!!

cheers

**John A.** · 12-24-2018, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by lammie200

It is kinda puzzling to me that Godin has used the neck joint design that we have been discussing. I have attached some pics of the Jazz model and Montreal model. The Jazz is full hollow, the Montreal is semi. The neck joint designs differ greatly. The Jazz has all the edges and angles that I couldn't live with. The big plus, however, is that the fret board is cantilevered over the guitar's top. Lot of free movement in the top and I am sure that that is a major contributing factor to the good sound that you can get out these models. It also seems like they could still cantilever the fret board with better sculpting of the neck joint to avoid all the angles and edges. It would be a killer guitar if that were the case IMHO. The Montreal has a more conventional neck joint as you can see. No cantilever though and not fully hollow. You would be getting a lot more of the sound out of the pick ups that anything else I would imagine. The first two pics are the Montreal. The last three pics are the Jazz.

I don't understand how the "shelf" affects playability. Other designs avoid this via a wider neck heel, but that doesn't change the cutaway itself or fretboard's distance from the cutaway. What difference does this shelf make, except visually? I played one of the cutaway models briefly, but didn't even notice this. it's also common on flattops with cutaways, but I'm not aware of it bothering people.

John

**lammie200** · 12-24-2018, 03:21 PM

Just to beat the dead horse a bit more, here are a couple of pics from the Oscar Graf website. If the Godin Jazz model were of similar design it would be awesome IMHO. Given that I only paid $900 for it with the TIRC case and it was brand new I would have been well chuffed with it. It had to be some kind of end of the year inventory thing for me to get it at that price. I sold it for the same amount, btw.

**Gitterbug** · 12-28-2018, 07:00 PM

...most 5th Avenues are sold without the cutaway. Mine doesn't have one, and it serves me perfectly. To me, this is a non-issue, as I sense that the jazz audience doesn't necessarily crave for very high notes from the guitar. Btw, all my finer archtops with the heel flush with the cutaway have developed a crack between the body and the heel, only the EUR 400 Ibanez AFJ 91 hasn't.

**zcostilla** · 01-31-2019, 02:57 PM

I’m new to jazz guitar but have been playing guitar since 1989, and I’ve played slide for 27 years and Latin music for 23 years.

There is a plethora of information here and the searches have been huge in helping me pick out a Godin 5th Avenue right before I almost pulled the trigger on an Epiphone Casino Coupe. But I was worried the Coupe would be too muddy, and I almost got the the kingpin but couldn’t turn down a new acoustic 5th Avenue for $328 (was an Amazon return). I am looking at pickups and the DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 is most likely my first choice. But the 1100 is also intriguing because it is adjustable. But the 1000 is slightly more microphonic and I think will pick up some of the nuances a little better (not that I’m a virtuoso or anything). I also want to avoid cutting into the guitar soundboard (I’m ok with putting the jack on the side of the lower bout.

I know I can install the pickup, but I’m really looking for any tips, especially on under the pickguard pots and capacitor choices. Which resistance pots are you guys using, and more importantly, why?

lastly, any other tips for a new to jazz guy would be great. And if anyone else lives near St Louis and wants to jam sometime, I’d love to meet up.

**Socalbill** · 01-31-2019, 06:13 PM

I guess if it was me I would hold off on the pickup for a bit. Play it acoustically, try different strings (this is important) and get it properly set up (or learn to do it yourself). After a bit of time you will have a much better idea about amplification. I know the 5th Ave can handle a wide variety of pickups, and I believe there are folks here who have added PUs to the acoustic version of the guitar. Or, you may decide to leave it acoustic...
Just some thoughts.

**zcostilla** · 01-31-2019, 06:55 PM

Forgot to mention my amp choices: a 5 watt 1954 Magnatone Varsity 108 class A and a Carvin Microbass MB12 (12” with selectable horn tweeter). I don’t gig, and only jam for fun except for a few times I play my nylon string or uBass at church, so needing a lot of volume isn’t a concern right now, just tone.

**omphalopsychos** · 02-01-2019, 02:20 AM

Hey I would recommend just buying a vintage DeArmond 1000. Yes it’s more pricey but the beauty is that, with the mounting bracket, the installation is never permanent, so if you ever want to upgrade the guitar you can very easily transfer the pickup over without thinking about having to install a new pickup again. Just my 2 cents.

a Dearmond 1000 vintage can be found for $400. If you are playing with a wound 3rd, the volume balances perfectly with Martin Retro strings, so no need to worry about the lack of adjustable poles.

**Chazmo** · 02-01-2019, 04:52 PM

I installed a DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 reissue on my 5th Avenue acoustic and it sounds pretty good. I was pleasantly surprised that 80/20 bronze acoustic strings work well with it. I used Schatten thumbwheel controls from Stew Mac, mounted under the pickguard so thery're pretty much invisible. The cap I used is the standard one included with the circuit board.

Schatten Thumbwheel Controls | stewmac.com

**Doctor Jeff** · 02-02-2019, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Chazmo

I installed a DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 reissue on my 5th Avenue acoustic and it sounds pretty good. I was pleasantly surprised that 80/20 bronze acoustic strings work well with it. I used Schatten thumbwheel controls from Stew Mac, mounted under the pickguard so thery're pretty much invisible. The cap I used is the standard one included with the circuit board.

Schatten Thumbwheel Controls | stewmac.com

I put a GFS floater on my 5th Avenue wired to an end pin jack—no guitar controls on this one. If I want to add controls I plug it into a Fishman ProEq 2. To be honest, I can shape the sound well enough with my acoustic amp, a Fishman Artist, that I don’t usually do that.

I also put a DA RC1000 RI on a vintage Harmony archtop with Schatten thumbwheel controls. Those controls are nice. I picked this pickup as much for the look as the sound—it complements the vintage Archie vibe I was interested in.

Of the 2 I prefer the Rhythm Chief, but it requires a bit of fettling to get the right tone. The balance among the strings isn’t perfect, as I’m sure you know, and it’s not adjustable. I did not have to cut out the pick guard on this one.

Just my .02 I wouldn’t want to get a $400 vintage RC (possibly with electrical issues due to age) to put on a $350 new guitar. The reissue RC and controls were about $160, IIRC, but the GFS floater is a real steal at $28.

GFS Thin Jazz Alnico Neck pickup- Vintage Archtop Pickup GOLD

If you’re just playing for yourself the GFS floater is an economical way to amplify your 5th Avenue.

**zcostilla** · 02-03-2019, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Chazmo

I installed a DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 reissue on my 5th Avenue acoustic and it sounds pretty good. I was pleasantly surprised that 80/20 bronze acoustic strings work well with it. I used Schatten thumbwheel controls from Stew Mac, mounted under the pickguard so thery're pretty much invisible. The cap I used is the standard one included with the circuit board.

Schatten Thumbwheel Controls | stewmac.com

Thanks! This is really good info. How well does the tone work at shaping the sound?

***EDITED TO ADD***
I think I got part of my answer through the Schatten Design website (Stew Mac didn’t list the potentiometer resistance info I was looking for). It says they’re 500k pots with 0.047 microfarad cap (most guitars use a 0.022 and up to a 0.1 for a lot of roll off).

My concern is that most single coils use 250k pots, so I’m concerned that the higher resistance and extra capacitance will make it too dark when the tone is rolled back.

**Chazmo** · 02-04-2019, 12:31 AM

I thought about the Schatten cap and pot values, too, because they are more commonly used for humbuckers and the DeArmond is a single coil. But it seems to work okay.

There are four tone "zones" with the Schatten/De Armond combo: With the tone control all the way up--full treble--the tone is fat and warm. I think that drives the gain up a bit. I'm trying to get as much acoustic tone as possible, and when I turn the tone wheel down a little, it cleans right up. If I turn it down some more, to about halfway or so, it really brings out the acoustic tone. That's kind of a sweet spot for me. Lowering towards the extreme end of the wheel travel--full bass cut--it starts to get too dark for me to use.

**zcostilla** · 02-04-2019, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chazmo

I thought about the Schatten cap and pot values, too, because they are more commonly used for humbuckers and the DeArmond is a single coil. But it seems to work okay.

There are four tone "zones" with the Schatten/De Armond combo: With the tone control all the way up--full treble--the tone is fat and warm. I think that drives the gain up a bit. I'm trying to get as much acoustic tone as possible, and when I turn the tone wheel down a little, it cleans right up. If I turn it down some more, to about halfway or so, it really brings out the acoustic tone. That's kind of a sweet spot for me. Lowering towards the extreme end of the wheel travel--full bass cut--it starts to get too dark for me to use.

This is really helpful. I might end up using traditional pots through the pickguard because I think I really want to use a 250k set. I found the reissue 1000 for $129 and I’ll probably buy it in a week or two. That SHOULD put the whole setup under $160 if shipping is reasonable. Time to scrounge Amazon for pots, knobs, wire, and a capacitor (free shipping with Prime rocks!)

Zac

**zcostilla** · 02-04-2019, 12:10 PM

This might be a game changer:

Kent Armstrong Floating Single Coil (Handmade) - DjangoBooks.com

getting really close to the Rhythm Chief AND a coil tap switch to go a touch hotter...hmmm, this has me really torn. I’m making the assumption the lower resistance when tapped will be the more vintage sound I’m craving, but could be wrong)

Zac

**Chazmo** · 02-04-2019, 08:00 PM

KAs are really nice.

Just from a cosmetic standpoint, the RC 1000 with the red cover looks really good on the 5th Avenue with the tortoise shell pickguard and truss rod cover. Kind of keeps that '50s vibe going too. I'm just sayin'...

**zcostilla** · 02-12-2019, 01:28 AM

So after researching everything and looking at recommendations, I ended up choosing a vintage vibe Charlie Christian floating pickup designed for a pickguard mount. It has the bell-like tones I really want and will be simpler to mount than the neck pole the DeArmond Rhythm Chief comes with, because the Godin neck is beveled at an angle where it suspends above the soundboard. Ordered it today, and will be looking forward to getting it in.

Here’s a link comparing this Vintage Vibe pickup with an original Gretsch:

Now to pick out the jack, pots, and capacitor...

the saga will continue, lol.

**Gregg20** · 03-04-2019, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Frank67

I confirm what mr B and Retroman pointed out. Not much accoustic volume, rather thin sounding accoustically. With the right set of strings it sounds nice amplified - but not that fat jazztone. But you haven't been going for that i suppose. Nice build quality.

I have an all acoustic one and I think the sound is loud enough. It depends on your approach...I play more on the aggressive side so the volume is more than adequate for me.

**medblues** · 03-04-2019, 04:05 PM

Mine had something wrong with its pickup (bought used) so I swapped in a Bartolini 5J. After a gut rewire and Bourns pots, it was the second most quiet-at-idle guitar I have (first is a Strat with cavity paint). I recently bought an Epiphone ES-175 Premium and compared to the Godin, it is difficult for me to distinguish the floater from the set-in Classic 57s sound (same thunk).

joelf · 03-06-2019, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Whistler

I'm in the market for a low-end archtop, acoustic only, no pickup, non cutaway.
There seems to be a few forum members that own the Godin Kingpin and particularly like it with the P90.

I'm wondering if there is a tonal difference between the 5th Avenue (no pickup) and the Kingpin. There was a Kingpin that I tried locally but it is now sold. The sound was terrible because of a rattle caused by something loose, so that was not a fair test.

Anybody tried both?
Thanks

I've had a 5th Avenue Kingpin as my main axe for 11 years now---and have no complaints (I guess if I waited another year I could have gotten the non-cutaway model---big deal). It has a dark, woody sound and is the right size for my small hands.

For a cheap archtop I don't think you could do much better...

**tgapen** · 04-03-2020, 03:49 PM

I apologize in advance since this may be a very tired topic. But I'm brand new to the forum and this guitar.

I recently traded an Ibanez ArtCore for the Kingpin CW II. It sounded good in the store and it just felt better in my hands than the Ibanez.

Since I've had it home I can't seem to get a tone out of it that I like. I'm playing it through a Line 6 Spider II 30 (feel free to bash my stupidity here for that) and I realize that is just not an amp that I should expect decent tone from with this guitar.
But I played it very briefly at my guitar teacher's studio through a old tube based Fender, not exactly sure which one, and it sounded pretty awful there too. The sound is insanely bright and tinee, if that is a word.

The bass is almost non-existent and the top three strings are ear piercingly bright. I feel like I may have made a mistake getting this guitar.

The Ibanez sounded fine through this Line 6. I don't know what strings are on it and I haven't tried changing them yet, not sure what I should try. What I'm hoping for is a clean, mellow tone that's balanced from low to high, like the sound the guy who is featured playing this same guitar on YouTube with Tony Bennett shared in this forum.

Any ideas how to get that, buttery jazzy tone short of spending a million dollars on a tube-based, tweed, twin reverb or some other vintage amp?

**sgosnell** · 04-03-2020, 08:16 PM

Picks make a huge difference in tone. The fastest, easiest, and cheapest way to experiment with tone is with different picks. IME, thin picks result in thin tone, although some seem to get decent tone with them. I don't know how. The next easiest and cheapest thing to try is strings. Try at least .012 sets, either flats or pure nickel. This is all assuming you've done everything possible to shape the tone of the amp you have. Change the tone controls a lot, trying full up, full down, and everything in between. Also try lowering the volume on the guitar, and raising it on the amp. This is all basic stuff, but might not be obvious to everyone.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-03-2020, 08:35 PM

What's your amp settings?

Take a pic of your guitar too...the pickup, polepieces.

I GUARANTEE you I can get you a good sound.

**Jehu** · 04-03-2020, 10:15 PM

Is it the P90 version? I had one of those for a few years and couldn't get a bad sound out of it if I tried. And oh, I tried.

I found that D'Addario Chrome 11s or 12s were a good match.

**Herbie** · 04-04-2020, 03:49 AM

Sorry to hear Your troubles!

I had similar experience with a P90-kingpin when I had one. Then I noticed that the bridge was plastic. I could have started tinkering but the guitar did not feel worth the effort so I sold it.

There is a wide consensus about Kingpins are great guitars so I was and still am a bit confuzed about my experience. I suppose it just wasn’t a good one!

I have not played Line 6 amps but I suppose it has a clean channel and some adusting for eq so it should be possible to get a decent sound – if the guitar allows.

Good luck!

**Gitterbug** · 04-04-2020, 06:58 AM

I have a single P90 5th Avenue Kingpin. There's something mysterious about this simple guitar - almost mood swings. Its sits in my TOOB test corner. One day it sounds great; the next day, awful. Apparently, the punchy trebles hurt your ears more when you're tired, starved or dry. During the first week, I went through three sets of strings before eventually returning to nickel round wounds, mainly because the guitar was going to have an acoustic and swing-comping role. This is a traditional jazz guitar in the sense that it has a strong bark and short sustain. Years ago I gigged with it through a Fender Pawn Shop Excelsior 15". Flatwounds then, tone rolled down and enough distance from the amp to avoid hum and feedback resulted in a rather likable, distinctive tone.

The advice in previous posts is sound and worth trying. Be patient: this guitar has character! The neck also lives more with humidity changes than my other archtops.