"Poor Mans" Pat Metheny Sound?

[MikeTT]

I'm pretty sure he also does some heavy equalizing on the mic (cutting out lows/mids). At least that's what I came up when experimenting with such a setup. If you combine the mic with the magnetic pu you get a 2 way system, mic for the high mids/highs and PU for the rest. It can help to bring out some more acoustic character at quite some volume (if you have some processing/eq in the signal chain).

[cfibanez]

Thanks! Indeed that was my intention.

And you can clearly see two jacks sticking out of the lower part o the guitar body.
I would just like to know which microphone(s) he has been using for this.

[Cunamara]

I think it is the AMT, removed from the gooseneck with a custom made mount. That looks like two pieces of metal sandwiching the edges of the f-hole.

[ausray@bigpond.com]

Hi all,

I am new in the forum.

I am researching how to create the Pat Metheny's sound in his ECM recordings - the heavy chorused sound. I know he hates chorus pedals and used a Lexicon Primetime with slight out of phase in to two amps.

I am thinking of creating the same using two delay pedals (like TC flashback) and an AB switch into two amps.

Any tips?

His sound has obviously changed and he uses a lot drier sound now. But I just want to step through the history and create these one at a time for my own learning.

thanks

[gitman]

As far as I can remember he used 2 Lexicon units on his first few recordings. The diffuse effect comes from 2 separate delay-signals, both with a very slight modulation dialed in. If you own a computer with Garage Band or Logic installed (or have access to one) you can simulate this quite easily with 2 virtual delays in your signal chain, both with slightly different modulation rates dialed in, maybe an irregular ping-pong delay, a multi-tap delay, something like that. It has to be in stereo, otherwise you won't get the width of the sound.
Another player who went to great lengths with his delay-setup was Alan Holdsworth : he used up to 5 separate delay-units (Yamaha multi-tap + mod) in series and parallel arrangements to spread around his on-stage sound....
The delayed signal has to be rather diffuse so you won't hear the direct slapback/reflection. You might want to try one of the better multi-fx pedals whose digital capacities are strong enough to handle the chore of creating 2 bit-intensive delaylines - Boss GT100, Helix/Helix Stomp, Axeffex come to mind ....

[yebdox]

I’m not an electronics wizard, but I have tried this with limited success with a couple of multi-effects units and I think the problem is, I don’t think you can (usually) dedicate the hard pan left and right for the different delay settings on a stereo delay for isolated signals going to separate amps, which is the most critical step (plus, Pat would use a 3rd amp for a separate center channel as well, as I recall.)

I think you might need to split the signal first, then have dedicated delay units going to separate amps for a better effect. Maybe 2 of those little Zoom BS-100 units (BT? Don’t recall) set up after being split by some other stereo pedal, maybe a stereo reverb. He had some specific settings for each that I don’t recall, like 18 and 45 milliseconds... google that for the exact numbers, which would be hard to do with a simpler delay pedal, you would need something with more precise controls.

An easier simulation is a very light, slow chorus followed by a simple stereo delay split to 2 amps, with the delay setting somewhere between 425 and 500 or so, and 2 to 3 repeats. I agree, a great sound to my ears, but totally Pat. The live shows/ videos from the 90’s still sound similar, though not as effected, and those are probably my favorites tones from his history. The new stuff, not so much.

The Holdsworth delays on the other hand, are easily accessible through a Yamaha Magic Stomp, which are still pretty available (I have 2). There are at least 5 of his multi-tap settings built in to those, which are a combination of 8 different stereo delays.... nothing like it, still, which is amazing in this digital universe, unless there is some boutique fractal setting or some such. Again, I don’t know everything, and sometimes barely anything.

[ausray@bigpond.com]

Thanks. I agree. My favourite Pat tone is his late 90s early 2000s sound around his trio album. He did change his setup then - he moved away from Gibson and was in to his Ibanez ( didn’t have the mic and two outputs) plus he had the Digitech 2101 processor. He also started using roundwounds instead of flats by then.
I love the tone he gets while on tour with Josh Redman. It’s full but not heavily chorus and goes well with trio or quartet settings especially with the dynamic range of a horn player. He was also recording with Brecker I believe at this time. I saw him in Melbourne two weeks ago ( luckily before all this virus) and he was playing his Slaman through Kemper profiler through what looked like bass 4 speaker cabinet. The sound was “ ok”. Somehow the guitar didn’t pop out very well and the strong dynamic mids were missing. His playing was even more phenomenal and his band was other worldly.

I actually got his pick which one of the stage guys threw to me and I was surprised he was not using his usual Duraline picks. Instead he was using the cellulose picks which is different to the duralines.

check the pics.

[yebdox]

A fun pursuit! Keep me posted, I agree with you on all points. His playing continues to amaze, but the tone.... well.

Interestingly, the tone on the live video for the Orchestrion album is still much more attractive than his current live tone to me. Puzzling that he would choose his current tone, as he is so careful with everything. Obviously intentional. Hmmm.

[Joeontheguitar]

With the Strymon Deco you can set the amount of delayed deck and reference deck to each amp in the wide stereo mode. I have the Deco, but I have no real experience with this. Here you can see the manual:https://www.strymon.net/manuals/Deco...anual_REVC.pdf

[catranch]

I love the PM spacious sound but I too am poor.

I recently discovered the Boss RV 6 Reverb pedal (6th vesion) can do PM sound the job fairly well.

It has a modulation setting that can be adjusted for time. It also has delay setting that comes close but I prefer the modulation better for a PM sound.

With modulation on, I set the time at 3/4 and the level of effect at 1/4 . If you want a VERY "Wide Missouri Sky" simply turn up the level of effect to 1/2 or more or get 2 Amps to use the pedal's stereo capability.

The pedal has a street cost of $140 new and the 5th version (the Boss RV-5 ) which also has modulation sells used for even less. I bought the 6th verion since I am reluctant to buy pedals used. I also wanted to try the delay setting , the dynamic setting and the shimmer setting. Shimmer is a little over the top for me , but I was able to create some interesting middle eastern sounds that Al di Meola might like.
The delay , dynamic and shimmer settings are not on the 5th version of the Boss RV pedal.

You cannot go wrong with this pedal. Everyone will always need good reverb.
It also has a small foot print on pedal board and Boss-Roland products are reliable.
Next, I am going to try the Boss RV 6 in a freinds stereo Roland Jazz Chorus which now has inputs for stereo effects and well known for a good clean Jazz sound.

Give it a look.

[JazzJunkie]

Wow, interesting to see how this thread has evolved over the years....Though I don't think Pat is doing the dual lexicon thing anymore (preferring more of a traditional "dryer" sound), I still occasionally like that slightly chorused vibe. I am actually using a Yamaha UD Stomp which is basically a chorus pedal on steroids (I sometimes like the Holdsworth "Metal Fatigue" sound). When last I checked, Pat was using a Kemper Profiler (wish I knew what kind of profiles he was using...I have a Kemper as well). Pat has a video on the Kemper site...it was a nice surprise for me after I purchased the Profiler to know Pat was using one as well. So, I enjoy both the dry sound (playing my ES 175 though a Swart AST Pro), and the processed sound when I go into a mixer (when I am using more "electric" guitars like a Tele or Strat...then I am getting more of a clean Eric Johnson kind of sound). Either way, it is fun experimenting with different sounds.

[gitaartom]

Try a very subtle delay pedal along with the flat wounds and rolling off the treble for a budget PM sound.

On the broader topic, I'm sorry, but so few jazz players have either a nice, unique, or interesting tone. When they try to sound like Metheny, George Benson, Scofield, Bill Frisell... I find it incredibly boring and distracting and my response is, "Gee they are trying to sound like _____." The Mike Moreno video above is a perfect example - gee, he's playing a Metheny tune with a Metheny sound that isn't quite there, but enough to not sound as good. Snooze... Then there are those trying to sound like Scofield or old McLaughlin (awful dry boring tone) and now we have to deal with so many players trying to sound like Frisell. I can't take it. Dear God, let's hope Mike Stern's tone doesn't become a trend. All this studying and technique buried under the most boring, tired, cliche, sterile, soulless guitar tones.

Meanwhile your technical inferiors in rock and roll have soooooo many diverse and cool guitar tone. Well, except those trying to sound like Vai or Satriani, but that hardly qualifies as rock and roll and is more like "metal for the thinking ex jazz guy with better hair." Perhaps, there is a pattern here? The more technically sophisticated the player (in rock or jazz) the more boring the tone?

Yeah let's not forget players like Julian Lage. Tele straight into a small amp and sound absolutely unique.

[Doug B]

I like Pat's playing, but who else here would like him to get a style makeover? Lose the chorus and get a haircut?

I find that Metheny's chorus (multi-delay) sound has a high fatigue factor. I like his playing/phrasing but not his chorusey sound-that gets old real fast.

Same with Mike Stern's sound (uses harmonizer, sounds chorus).

The Digitech Nautila Chorus sounds better with 8 chorus levels going at once, but still....

[christianm77]

Yeah let's not forget players like Julian Lage. Tele straight into a small amp and sound absolutely unique.

I think he uses a JHS Morning Glory?

[LAOMUSIC ARTS]

Hi all,

I am new in the forum.

I am researching how to create the Pat Metheny's sound in his ECM recordings - the heavy chorused sound. I know he hates chorus pedals and used a Lexicon Primetime with slight out of phase in to two amps.

I am thinking of creating the same using two delay pedals (like TC flashback) and an AB switch into two amps.

Any tips?

His sound has obviously changed and he uses a lot drier sound now. But I just want to step through the history and create these one at a time for my own learning.

thanks

"the REAL answer to your question though is this. i used an acoustic (brand name) 134 model amp for 20 years from 1974 to 1994. that amp had the SOUND for me. flat, kind of midrangy-bright but mellow and LOUD without any distortion. a hard combination of things to find in one place. unfortunately it was also really noisy and tended to break alot. i paid alot of dues keeping that guy around. during the josh redman tour i could see i was finally gonna have to change and also i had the urge to get modern a little. i knew there were new things out there and so i started trying everything. i finally settled on the digitech 2101 dsp guitar preamp. with it, i could get the SOUND and some cool bells and whistles too, mainly pre-programmability. (no more moving the barely-hangin-on-the-134-front-panel treble control exactly 2.3 centimeters to get the sitar on "last train home" to sound right and then in the 1.7 seconds before the next tune starts trying to get EXACTLY back to where it was. etc.)

like the 134 always was, the output of the digitech is run into 2 lexicon prime-time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 ms delay, one one my right at 26 ms delay. each delay has a very slight "pitch bend" controlled by the VCO (sine wave) inside the prime-time. this is what gives it the "chorused" thing that i guess i would have to say i was the first to use extensively in jazz and that seemed to have influenced alot of other guys to do the same. only thing, i HATE the way "chorus boxes" sound, my sound is mostly the "straight "134/digitech line which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND which gets blended IN THE AIR with the the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends (which are much softer than the "straight" amp volume) to get a bigger sound. i HATE when i hear the "pitch bend" and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. it drives me crazy. you can then imagine that it's hard for me in a studio. studios and records are STEREO and i have THREE discrete sources, "straight", delay left, and delay right. i don't feel like i've ever gotten it right on any record. i'm anxiously awaiting the coming days when we get to go back in and re-mix everything for everyone's home 6-track surround systems!!! i'll finally be able to get the guitar sound right!!!!!! (also, i forgot one thing, i always have a slight 450-500 ms delay mixed in right off the guitar too. if you hear it too much, it's too loud. it just lengthens the notes some.) "