Looking For Archtop (Peter Bernstein Sound)

[Irwin1993]

25.5"

Thanks wintermoon, and just curious, how do you know this?

[wintermoon]

John was a very close friend, I got to play the majority of his archtops before the buyers picked them up.
the early ones like Pete's were 25.5" scale and 17.5" wide, I had an early one like that also. He later experimented w/ different scale lengths and widths but preferred 25.5" and knowing John, if he felt strongly about something it was hard to talk him out of it.

[whiskey02]

do we know if PB's pickup is off a Gibson Howard Roberts
or if it's a normal HB ?

Pretty sure I have read it’s a Duncan Seth Lover pickup on PB’s guitar.

[Georgebenson&hedges]

It's not a Zeidler but pretty pretty close to look/feel/vibe/sound you're looking for. Handmade. 17in. Thinline Archtop. Kent Armstrong PAF. Let me know if you want to know anymore. I'm in United Kingdom.

Foster Basin Street 17in Thinline Archtop

[Skip moy]

Hi guys,
I am thinking about buying my first archtop because I fall in love with Peter Bernstein’s sound.
There is something I really like about the balance and the acoustic voice of his guitar but I don’t know what to look for.
I always play my 15’ Semihollow guitar that I really love but I’d like to play something different sometimes.
Do you have some advice about where to find something similar?
I am in Europe and my budget is around 4000€.
Thank you!

Have look at these guitars , the maker is in Europe ,John Stowell is using one ...I'm not sure on pricing but perhaps you can speak with them
Zaletelj Guitars | Instruments
Skip

[Dave93]

Have look at these guitars , the maker is in Europe ,John Stowell is using one ...I'm not sure on pricing but perhaps you can speak with them
Zaletelj Guitars | Instruments
Skip

Thank you but I found a beautiful Moffa that I really enjoy playing.
Beautiful Guitar!

[Tal_175]

I think it's sometimes possible to tell the difference between archtops in recordings when comparing drastically different designs: P-90 vs PAF, shallow vs full depth, 15inch vs 17inch, laminate vs lighty build carved. But guitars with similar construction parameters by different makers I don't think come through very differently in the recordings. Pat Metheny said he could never tell which guitar he used from listening to the recordings.

So as long as you get a guitar that's similar in these basic parameters, the rest of the differences are the players technique, language and personality.

[mr. beaumont]

Don't overthink it.

You want a humbucker, a tube amp, and keep that tone up.

Like, you hear Peter here, and there's all that acoustic character. because it's a small room, the mic is close, it's quiet.

But that's not what it's going to sound like much of the time.

That video with Mehldau...clean tone, clear, not too mid heavy, certainly not bass heavy. Balanced. You could get that with lots of guitars. It's the playing that you won't

[sgcim]

Playing aside, I had a chance to A/B PB's sound with Paul Bollenback's Benedetto Benny on the guitar duo they did in late Feb. for the Jazz Forum. I preferred the mellow sound of the Benny to the slightly lumbering sound of the Zeidler. I emailed Paul about it, and he said he wasn't even using an amp he ever used before. They had a Fishman at the place they played at, so he used the Fishman rather than lug his amp over there!

[Cunamara]

Pretty sure I have read it’s a Duncan Seth Lover pickup on PB’s guitar.

Pete's pickup is from a Gibson Howard Roberts (with the oval soundhole, not the Fusion).

[bluejaybill]

I had an extensive conversation with John Moriarty of Moriarty Guitars in Ireland about this about five years ago; he was apparently quite familiar with Pete's guitar. He indicated that it is a humbucker off of a Gibson Howard Roberts model, the one with the oval sound hole. I believe that this was wound with a higher DC resistance than a PAF style humbucker. John also noted that balancing the output of the pickup is a frequent problem; Pete apparently often has to adjust the pole pieces of the pickup to accommodate different amps, different rooms, etc. It's not quite as plug and play as one might hope.

However, Pete's sound is one of my favorite jazz guitar sounds. It's articulate and bright, yet manages to be warm with a rather plummy sustain; a lot of that probably has to do with the amp and settings rather than the guitar itself. And of course Pete would sound like Pete on any guitar. His touch is a huge piece of that. Listening to him converted me from trying to find a dark Jim Hall type sound to something that was more naturally how the guitar tends to sound.

I have a 17 inch carved top arch top that I struggled with finding an electric sound for a long time. Great acoustic sound, absolutely love the guitar, but getting that out through an amp was a challenge. It variously had a mini humbucker, a Kent Armstrong PAF-0, a modified Gibson Classic 57 turned into a neck mounted floater, a monkey on a stick style Kent pick up and finally has a neck mounted floating Charlie Christian style pick up. Now I am very happy with the electric sound of that guitar. I also experimented with a lot of different amps and the one I like best with that guitar is a clone of the Fender 5E3 tweed Deluxe.

In the process of all this I came to the conclusion that mounting the pickup to the end of the neck a la Pete's Ziedler, the Gibson Johnny Smith and the Ibanez GB10 rather than to the pickguard was essential for getting a decent tone. I have a whole theory about this that probably isn't worth the paper it's not written on, and not worth going into here.

I for one would like to hear it! Is it that the pickup gets stronger vibrations from being attached to the guitar?

[Cunamara]

I for one would like to hear it! Is it that the pickup gets stronger vibrations from being attached to the guitar?

well, OK. I'm not in acoustical engineer or a luthier, so the odds of my being accurate may not be all that great. We have probably all commented on having noticed that archtop guitars with set-in pickups sound different than archtop guitars with floating pickups: compare an L5 with a Johnny Smith with a Benedetto, for example. One of the forum members took an Epiphone with a floating pick up and routed a new pickup into the top, finding a significant change (and improvement from his perspective) in the amplified sound.

Lots of theories have been bounced around about why this is. As far as I can tell, most people seem to think that the pickup set into the top is vibrating with the top under the strings resulting in a much more complex signal. It's got "body" to it. By comparison, a floating pickup mounted to the pick guard a la Benedetto is much more isolated from the vibrating top, resulting in a signal that is more "string" than "body." I tend to go along with this notion. However, it should also be noted that most set-in pickups are full-size humbuckers and most floating pickups are mini humbuckers; the aperture of the pick up for sensing the string is different between those two choices. So that is another factor.

When I bought my guitar, it came with an Allparts mini humbucker mounted to the pickguard Benedetto style. I loved the acoustic sound of the guitar but was very dissatisfied with the amplified sound. It was bright and thin; at that point in time, my reference tone for amplified jazz guitar was Jim Hall. Practically the diametric opposite. So what I wanted was the electric sound of a Gibson ES 175. I tried many different amps without success; the fundamental signal of the guitar was what it was. Then I started swapping pickups as described in the previous post I wrote. My old guitar teacher had a late 60s or early 70s Gibson Johnny Smith; that guitar did not suffer from this problem. It was not as thick and dark as Jim Hall tone, but there was a lot more heft and body to the electric sound than my guitar had, even though my guitar probably had a little bit stronger acoustic sound. I did also really like the early-to-mid-50s Johnny Smith sound, which was a D'Angelico guitar with a DeArmond 1100 pick up most of the time, but I've never had one of those 1100s to try. I have a Kent monkey-on-a-stick pickup, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good. The DeArmonds tend to rest on the top which may increase the coupling between the pickup and the top.

Now, at that time I didn't realize the difference structurally between the Johnny Smith pickup and the mini humbucker as being part of the reason for this. But I did notice that the Johnny Smith had the pickup mounted to the end of the fingerboard and that the pickup otherwise looked like mine but sounded much better. I also have an Ibanez GB10 which has a pretty fat and solid amplified sound; it too has the pickup mounted to the end of the neck. That made me start thinking that the reason pickups mounted like that sounded intermediate between the set-in pick up and the floating pick up was because mounting it to the neck resulted in it picking up some of the body vibrations. That was when I modified the Gibson Classic 57 to be a neck-mounted pickup. By then I had started listening to Peter Bernstein and had broadened my appreciation of amplified archtop guitar sound considerably. This pickup was much more satisfactory except that it was so thick, with the legs removed, that it was very very close to the strings and hard to balance as a result. It was successful in that the notes had a lot more body, a lot less stringiness but a lot more feedback.

I started listening to some recordings of guitars with Charlie Christian style pickups including real ones and the modern day humbucker sized versions inspired by the old ones. Fred Archtop had some videos with featuring those pickups by Pete Biltoft and I really liked the bell-like quality of the sound he got. I had Pete build me one to be mounted to the end of the neck of my guitar and also with enough clearance from the top of the pick up to the string, installed it and have been quite delighted since. That pickup has been on that guitar now for several years and I haven't felt it necessary to try something else for tonal reasons. The pick up sounds very much like the guitar does, only louder. It does hum like crazy in some circumstances and I use a Hum Debugger to control that with pretty good results.

So, being aware that there are way too many variables in this equation and I am probably oversimplifying, what I have decided is that the more the pickup is isolated from the vibrating top of the guitar, the "stringier," thinner, clearer and brighter the sound is compared to mounting the pickup in the top of the guitar which is "woodier," fatter and thicker. There is more treble information in the former and more bass/lower mid information in the latter. Mounting the pickup using a bracket at the end of the fingerboard, like the Johnny Smith or GB10, puts one in an intermediary position between those two sounds. Now, you may want one sound more than another for different situations. If you are playing with a lot of other instruments, the floating pick up may be a better choice because it will cut through the mix more effectively than a darker, fatter pick up with a lot of mid range information. But on the other hand, in a trio setting the sound may get a little thin with the floating pickup. As you might guess, I tend to think of the neck mounted pickup as the best compromise between the two, if you're only going to have one archtop guitar. Johnny Smith may have been right all along!

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Even if I'm wrong.

[ccroft]

..... what I have decided is that the more the pickup is isolated from the vibrating top of the guitar, the "stringier," thinner, clearer and brighter the sound is compared to mounting the pickup in the top of the guitar which is "woodier," fatter and thicker.... So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Even if I'm wrong.

I don't think you're wrong, but this is not always true. You should come to Vancouver Isl one day to test this. I have a set-in KA PAF-0 in a lightly carved Eastman, and a floating KA PAF-0 in a more thickly carved Lehmann. The Lehmann is far woodier, fatter and thicker thru the amp, and acoustically. It's the same full sized humbucker in both.

Both are 2 3/4 deep, 16 inches, all carved maple & spruce, ebony fingerboard and bridge, and X braced. The Eastman is 25" scale and Lehmann 24 3/4, or so say the specs. Both have Vermont-made KA PAFS. I put it in the Eastman myself.

My experience, which is actually very limited, is that it has a lot to do with the carve of the top. Probably weight of bracing as well, but I can't compare these 2 very well.

Seems much of the time people are comparing floating MiniHum type to set-in full FullSizeHum type to come up with the prevailing wisdom on this. Fact is, there's way more floating Mini's around than floating full-size. I don't think a lot of folks have the kind of opportunity to compare that I have stumbled into.

In the end, I like both of mine and I'm glad you've figured out something that works for you!

[Cunamara]

Interesting point. Yes, not comparing like with like as far as pickup goes muddies the water. I had tried one of Kent's floating PAF0s and- on this guitar, at least- it just did not sound good. A while back when we were talking about using Blue Tack to mount pickups, I took the CC off of and Blue Tacked on the Kent Armstrong. It definitely sounded better than it did mounted to the pickguard, but still not as warm and "wide" as the CC does.

I have heard plenty of evidence of the Armstrong pickup sounding fantastic when mounted to the pickguard. It just didn't seem to agree with this instrument. Reducing the sound as to how to pickup is mounted is probably oversimplification.

[ccroft]

Well... they are hand wound after all. Kent must have on days and off days.

Now I'm gonna have to get a 16" carved with neck mount PAF and put this controversy to bed once and for all! :)

[Cunamara]

Well... they are hand wound after all. Kent must have on days and off days.

Now I'm gonna have to get a 16" carved with neck mount PAF and put this controversy to bed once and for all!

we appreciate your sacrifice!

[Jonathan0996]

All you need to get that sound is a Zeidler and Bernstein's hands.

[Alter]

It's impressive how different Bernstein sounds with a Gibson L5 and with a Zeidler.

I've heard Bernstein live on a couple of occasions with this guitar, he sounds amazing. I've also heard a player unknown to me with a Zeidler many years ago (at Wally's in Boston actually), and still remember how marvelous he sounded! So these guitars were probably something to behold..

I'd say it's the combination of an acoustic natured archtop, solid woods, carved top and all, and a Paf pickup. But then again, most L5s are like that. It's been informative to read all the pickup information on this thread..

[christianm77]

Word on the street is that Peter has had a similar spec guitar built by Victor Baker. Will be interesting to compare!

[floatingpickup]

I don't know about Italy import duties and all. Peter Bernstein's Zeidler is a high bar. If you are willing to settle for something close enough, a Kent Armstrong floating 12-pole PAF on a laminated archtop may do the trick.

Give Steve Holst or Victor Baker or Ned Whittemore a shout. You can google search them. They may be able to give you what you want at your €4000 budget. Keep your eyes open for a used Moffa, too. They do come up now and then.

Franz Elferink, Daniel Slaman and Stephan Sonntag are worth calling up, too.

I put a Kent Armstrong 12 pole floating paf on a Heritage Golden Eagle. It was a fantastic pickup. It sounded like a full-sized humbucker, but it was thin enough to fit under the strings on a normal archtop.
Keith

[2bornot2bop]

C’mon guys. Even a piano player knows that Bernstein’s sound is in his fingers, and therefore can’t be duplicated. Surely you guys know this, yes?

[floatingpickup]

....So, being aware that there are way too many variables in this equation and I am probably oversimplifying, what I have decided is that the more the pickup is isolated from the vibrating top of the guitar, the "stringier," thinner, clearer and brighter the sound is compared to mounting the pickup in the top of the guitar which is "woodier," fatter and thicker. There is more treble information in the former and more bass/lower mid information in the latter. Mounting the pickup using a bracket at the end of the fingerboard, like the Johnny Smith or GB10, puts one in an intermediary position between those two sounds. Now, you may want one sound more than another for different situations. If you are playing with a lot of other instruments, the floating pick up may be a better choice because it will cut through the mix more effectively than a darker, fatter pick up with a lot of mid range information. But on the other hand, in a trio setting the sound may get a little thin with the floating pickup. As you might guess, I tend to think of the neck mounted pickup as the best compromise between the two, if you're only going to have one archtop guitar. Johnny Smith may have been right all along!

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Even if I'm wrong.

This makes sense to me. I have several guitars with floating pickups involving various installation methods - mounted to the end of the neck, attached to the pickguard, monkey on a stick, attached to the top with blue tack. I haven’t tried different alternatives on one guitar, so I can’t really isolate that single factor from all of the other variables. I will say that my Gibson Johnny Smith pickups with the neck mount seem different than the others. They have warmth and sustain that I really like. I realize this could also be due the guitar’s physical characteristics (a Gibson Johnny Smith guitar has other features designed to increase sustain). Having said that, it just seems logical that a pickup that is attached to the actual guitar (neck or top) would sound different than one hanging off a pickguard. Even if this is not the case, there is another reason I prefer the neck mount. I have seen pickups that were glued to the pickguard come loose, in some cases causing damage to the top. Mark Campellone fastens them to the guard with a screw, which will prevent this (he also ships his guitars with the pickguard off). All things considered, I really like the extremely secure method used on the original Johnny Smith.
Keith

[coolvinny]

I've had good success with the pickguard mounted KA 12-pole PAF (better once screwed in vs. glued IMO) and also with the neck mounted equivalent. The guitars weren't usually apples-to-apples (even on paper) but I preferred neck-mounted for tone (and stability). I've also had guitars (and still have 1) with routed KA as well as other PAF style HB's and they've been nice, but personally I seem to prefer floaters as I find it's easier to make a slightly-acoustic tone more electric than vice versa...sorta like how it's easier to tame brightness than to add definition to muddiness.

[Cunamara]

Word on the street is that Peter has had a similar spec guitar built by Victor Baker. Will be interesting to compare!

I don't know how professional musicians feel about this, but if I was traveling about the world for appearances and had a guitar that rare and valuable, I would want something a little more replaceable for air travel.

BTW, after hearing that clip of PB with Brad Mehldau I bought the Signs Live album. Pete and Mehldau seem to play very well together.

[Caro]

I have a 66 Kay Jazz Delux which is really lovely tone wise, acoustically, through a powered speaker(with no effects) and also through my DV Mark- a little Jazz amp. I know they probably don't usually compare with a Gibson set up, however it is a very unique and rich sound and lovely to play, definitely worth trying one out.