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Hi all
finally I got now my X-180, build in 2002 and is in an almost new condition. Many thanks to Ali who sold this fantastic guitar to me. I´m very happy that I got her now. It´s a lot of fun to play on her!
I hope to be able to post some pics soonly.
Thomas
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07-06-2011 11:02 AM
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Hi everybody,
This is my first post here, please welcome me!
Guitar was my first instrument but never my primary instrument, I'm a trumpet player. I find myself playing guitar much more often those days, so I want to improve my jazz skills on a true jazz guitar. I've played solid bodies since 25 years and the fall in love with a Godin Fifth Avenue archtop last year, but it had to go. Now it's time to get me my first serious jazz box, and have to decide between a Guild GSR X-180 vs. Gibson ES125TC from 1968.
As a long-time follower of the forum, I'm aware of the differences: Guild X180 has a deeper body, carved spruce top, maple body, three-piece mahagony/maple/mahagony neck, ebony fretboard, 24 3/4 scale, comes with 2 Seymour Duncan 59 humbuckers. This Guild doesn't have a sound block under the bridge, so a true hollow-body. As you may know, GSR Guilds were limited edition special runs, the one in my town has a Bigsby, only 5 have been built! So, a mint, ultra-rare USA custom built Guild with amazing specs and great reviews... Bigsby is not necessary for my needs, but I find it as a nice addition, as I don't only play jazz on my guitar... 1900EUR (New price was over 4000EUR)
On the other hand, the 1968 ES125-TC is a cutaway thinline, laminated, comes with two original P90s. The bridge is a set TuneOMatic. 2200EUR.
Acoustically, Guild MAY be a better instrument. Maybe a bit brighter because of the carved spruce top, but probably more dynamic and articulate, and humbuckers with the tone dialed down it should be good enough to get some classic dark Jim Hall sounds... It's deeper (3"), so should be louder. It's a new custom instrument, perfect condition.
On the other hand, the thinline Gibson ES125 probably less prone to feedback, acoustically probably weaker but should be amazing electrically with those vintage P90s. Because of the set TOM bridge, probably less resonant and more suited for rock tones, but I have seen Marc Ribot doing amazing things with this axe, so more versatile but still a jazz instrument. On the other hand it's a 52 years old instrument, has mojo, nice wood, but probably more prone to issues in the future if not today. The owner says it's in great condition, no neck reset needed. ES125 was a student model, and the Guild has definitely better specs and pro feeling, almost in the class of an L4 rather than 175, but in a 1968 instrument it may be irrelevant. I don't care much about the resale value and don't see it as investment, and both will go up in value, maybe Gibson more so...
Should I go vintage? Should I get this beautiful rare blonde Guild? Guild is 300EUR cheaper, so almost irrelevant. I can try the Guild but not the Gibson, Gibson has to be shipped.
I'm looking for Jim Hall, Joe Pass sounds, but I do like Marc Ribot and Bill Frisel also a lot, and I know both have played/play ES125.
I know it's kind of apples and pears (not oranges) and for those prices it would be amazing to have both, but I can't afford both now and have to decide in 1 week. What do you think?
Cheers and take care!
Onur
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Welcome!
Personally, I am a Guild fan because of their tone, and because they are very consistent in terms of quality. I would have no issues buying a Guild sight unseen, but would do that with few other brands, and not generally with Gibson. You mentioned the obvious, which is resale value, and that it doesn’t concern you. When considering a Guild that is usually good as only a select few Guilds appreciate in value, or even hold their value, whereas Gibson will probably do well in terms of value. That said, I have never owned a bad Guild, and I have been buying, selling, and collecting them for at least 40 years. These are two very different guitars, so all you can do is play the Guild, and if it speaks to you buy it and move on. If not, then I would consider the Gibson. That said, I’m sure my opinion is in the minority out here, and others are sure to express their disdain for everything I believe.
Welcome, and enjoy the search for your next guitar!
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Welcome to the forum, dogzstar.
To start:
The Guild does not have a carved top. It has a laminated spruce top. This is not a good or bad thing, but unquestionably affects the timbre of the instrument.
Gibson thinline ES-125 instruments in the 1960s often have neck blocks made with laminated wood. These sometimes fail, requiring a bit of repair and a neck reset. As well, many of these guitars have very small necks - I suppose that may be attractive or unattractive to you.
My personal opinion is that the Guild will unquestionably be a vastly superior instrument in every conceivable way. It was built as a higher end instrument and as a showcase for the brand. The ES-125TC was built in massive quantities as a budget instrument, and has its own charm. Given that you can play the Guild and not the ES-125, the Guild is not only a great value but a much lower risk. Pickups are irrelevant to the choice - you can always install humbucker-sized P-90 pickups in the Guild if you want to do so, or P-90-sized humbuckers in the Gibson. These are easily reversed modifications that do not require any need to modify or cut into the instruments.
I have played only a few thousand Gibson archtops and a few hundred Guild archtops over the past 45 years, so my opinion is based solely on my limited personal experience, FWIW. Good luck with it, however you proceed!
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By 1968 a lot of Gibsons had narrow nuts. (Cut it out, you -- it's a technical term.)
Some people treat nut width as a big deal and some people don't. Before you buy the Gibson get a measurement for the nut and decide how much it matters to you.
+ + +
The ES-125TC neck joint is not the apex of Gibson's storied history in luthiery. Before you buy the Gibson see whether the neck does or does not need a reset. If the bridge is screwed all the way down, maybe the base is thinned-out and the string height is still some tall, it needs a reset.
+ + +
Good luck with your purchase. Here's hoping your new guitar inspires you!
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Thanks a lot guys, all very useful responses, and nice to find Guild experts here!
I think I decided to go with the Guild against the Gibson: Less risky, more "professional" build, fully hollow and deeper body, spruce top and ebony fretboard should add more dimension and articulation etc.
Now, Guild is the answer, but to get the decision a bit more complicated, I found a X-500 from 1988 close to my town (Barcelona) as well, price is almost same.
X-500 seems to be "superior" to X-1xx series in general, but not necessarily against the X-180 GSR.
X-180 is not a traditional X-1xx, like the X-500 it has spruce top and ebony fretboard, unlike it's siblings. The only cosmetic difference is the f-hole binding and abalone inlays on the X-500 (which is too much a detail, no?). And I think the neck is 5 piece design in X-500 and 3 piece design in X-180 GSR. Not 100% sure on the wood structure, X-180 GSR has maple body and rosewood neck. Body size and depth should be the same as I understand it, or is the X500 slightly bigger? Couldn't confirm fretboard "curve" and neck radius on those specific models, I would prefer a thicker neck. What do you think about the Guild HB1 pickups on the X500? Yes I can change the pickups on the X180 GSR but Guild HB1s are not available on the market, so that's sth. And the X500 has an ebony bridge, not the X180 I guess, and Guildsby vs. traditional Guild harp tailpiece is one big difference... Also nitro finish on the X180 GSR, not sure about the X500..
The "superiority" argument may be irrelevant as X180 GSR is a custom showcase instrument limited to 5, and the video I saw on Youtube about New Hartford factory only confirms the care given to X180 GSR.
Would you still defend the X500 against the X180 GSR? Any reasons to consider?
Take care!
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Both super-nice guitars.
Play them both and buy whichever one you prefer.
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The X-500 is "only" 312 km away from Barcelona, so I would go there to pick it up by bus, but can't try it before I make a decision.
But yeah, both should be equally satisfying, I tend to the X180 GSR because of the Guildsby, colour/finish, rarity and it's in my town, -if nobody convinces me to get the X500!
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OK, done!!
Let us know what you think of the X180 GSR when you get it.
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Is a Westerly Starfire IV for 1300EUR a valid alternative to the X-180 GSR for 1900EUR?
Ok, completely different animals, but I don't have a proper jazz amp, so I can spend the difference in price for an amp.
Don't want to start semi-hollow vs. hollow discussion, but if I go semi-hollow, there is also a Hamer Newport (which is 2/3 hollow) with P90s for 1500EUR in my town. A better alternative to Starfire maybe?
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I would say this also.
Originally Posted by Hammertone
I know a guy who played tons of Guilds and tons of ES Gibsons from 1980 probably. He didn't say anything bad about both manufacturers ....
He played Guild with P90s and he was super cool with guitar.
He also played black Gibson with PRS headstock, and splits, .... he was also super cool with that guitar.
I would say same, play both and then decide.
I bet both are super fine instruments.
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"I want to improve my jazz skills on a true jazz guitar." Originally Posted by dogzstar
Well, I suppose that jazz is as you like it.
These other guitars are distractions and time-wasters.
Stop the mewling and puking.
Get the X-180 GSR.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-28-2020 at 12:27 AM.
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Ok, a full hollow body it will be, and X-180 GSR is still my favorite.
But today another option popped up: A vintage X-150 Savoy from 1960 with a Franz pickup. All original apart from the "improved" bridge and tuners (original ones come with the guitar) and seems in a very good condition.
Again, I will have to buy one of those without trying.
Should I go vintage or get the GSR? Both are quite rare. Most important differences apart from the age: 1 x vintage Franz pickup vs 2 x Seymour Duncan HBs, and bigsby on the GSR.
What do you think? 1959-1960 was a great year for guitar history, but anybody who can compare quite very vintage Guilds vs modern ones?
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Franz pickups are fine - very P-90-like. You can always get a P-90 style for the X-180 that fits into the existing pickup rings.
IMO, the X-180 GSR is a much nicer guitar than a X-150 Savoy, and it will definitely have better build quality quality compared to the old Savoy. And if you want a nice gold Guild harp tailpiece for the X-180 GSR at some point, I have a few of them around here somewhere.
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Hi guys,
Because of the quarantine I wasn't able to try the Guild X180 GSR, but next week we will be free to leave town at the end and it's still available!
Meanwhile, I have the option to buy a handmade archtop from Canada, namely The Morning Song by Jean Pierre LaPlante. It's a one-off 17" instrument, with laminated spruce top and bubinga sides and back. Wooden tailpiece, wooden pickguard, Benedetto pickup, beautiful pearl artwork on the ebony fretboard etc.
@Hammertone, as you are from Toronto, do you have an idea about the quality of LaPlante guitars? He is the writer of a book on archtop building, but very few reviews about his guitars. And I think he quit building recently.
Would you recommend it against the Guild X180 GSR? The guitar is in EU and only 700EUR more expansive than the Guild. I may prefer a bigger body (Guild is 16"), I am not looking for a carved top, and LaPlante's guitar is a beauty... Please help me choose!
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I prefer the visual appeal of the Guild.
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Wait, we actually had Jacques (and so fun to say ‘Jay-queeze’) speak from the forest of Arden in this forum? The seven stages of guitar buying? Originally Posted by Hammertone
What next? Robert Burns quotes on self-image and seemingly ill-advised guitar purchases.
“O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us, - to get the X-180 GSR of course.”
Definitely the X-180 GSR.
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Ha! Thanks for noticing, but ... Jaques, please. Milton has a few words of advice as well, but he concentrates more on how the Guild feels in the hand as opposed to how it looks, for obvious reasons. Originally Posted by Bezoeker
“I sung of Chaos and Eternal Night, Taught by the heav'nly Muse to venture down
The dark descent, and up to reascend, wielding my X-180 GSR of course...”Last edited by Hammertone; 06-15-2020 at 03:00 PM.
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And Keats...
I saw pale kings and princes too,
Pale warriors, death-pale were they all;
Who cry’d - “La bell Dame sans mercy
Hath thine X-180 GSR”
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And of course the ‘Intimations of Guitar Immortality’, Wordsworth...
“Be now for ever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendor in the grass, of glory in the X-180 GSR;
[...]
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest arch top can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.”
OK, will stop now. You started it.
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