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I have an Ibanez GB30. It has the large wooden cover over the bridge and that makes it impossible to see if the ball of the string is sitting fully in the slot...you cant see it...a Really stupid design...
Can I take that off?
It doesn't seem to slide off but maybe I am not pressing hard enough...I am having intonation issues and I need to eliminate this issue first before I adjust the string length...
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03-06-2020 07:50 PM
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You mean the tail piece where the strings' ball ends are held out of sight. The end part of the wire wrapping that secures the ball end to the string can sometimes get caught and try to hold position rather than slipping to let the ball end hold the position. Next string change, take off all the strings and fold the tail piece upward from the body (it is hinged where the strap screw is located, right?).
Take a close look at how the strings are meant to be held, then take a used string and place it into the tail piece a few times while you can see everything to get the feel for how it will go when you can't see it. When restringing, make sure each ball end continues to remain seated by holding some tension on the string until you have turned the tuning key enough to take up the slack (which you will have been holding tight).
This sounds like you need three hands, but after seating the ball end and running the other end over the nut and through the tuning post, put your right forearm on the fret board UNDER the string and lift it enough to hold the string tight as you use your two hands to get the string into the peg and the winding started (one hand to hold the string down against the peg, the other to turn the key, your forearm keeping tension to hold the ball end firm).
When the string length is short enough from turning the tuning key that you need to get your arm out from under the string, there should be enough winding on the peg that you can replace you arm with your right hand fingers, but don't let the string go slack during the switch from holding tension with your arm to doing that with just the fingers. Either use your left hand to hold tension while you switch from using right forearm to right hand fingers, or carefully slip your arm out until it is your hand holding the tension, then move your hand to put your fingers where they can grab the string with no loss of tension. Continue turning the key and holding the string tight with your fingers until it is tight enough to hold the ball end seated firmly by itself.
Once you get it loosely strung and you have tested and are confident that all the ball ends are firmly seated, tune it to pitch and adjust the bridge/saddles for intonation... see if all goes well.
Last edited by pauln; 03-07-2020 at 02:43 AM.
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can I remove the wooden piece temporarily???
I screwed up royally..... I used a mirror underneath and made sure all the ball ends were deep in the groove...
BUT I didnt know that electric guitars saddle MOVES!!! that sucks.... now its in the wrong place and the strings are FKKKKd... here are some pics....should the saddle be right up against the pick up? Thats the way it looks in the manual..
what a frkkn disaster..
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Measure the scale length. End of nut to the middle of 12th fret. Then position top of saddle at the bridge to be same distance but add 1/16 of an inch at the high E and 2/16 at low E.
This gets you close use tunomatic to dial in exact intonation. So a 25 inch scale the saddles sits 12.5 inches plus 1/16 for compensation at high E. Or 12 9/16s.
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Or, you can detune the strings enough to move the bridge so that the note played at the 12th fret matches the harmonic played at the 12th fret... for this the actual pitch of the string doesn't matter, only the match with adjustment of the bridge position, you may need to angle the bridge a little, just get it all close as possible. Then tune up to pitch and use the saddle position adjustments to finish the intonation:
For each string:
Compare the 12th fretted pitch to the harmonic at the 12th fret.
If the fretted note is flat, the sounding string length is too long - move the bridge or screw the saddle toward the head stock.
If the fretted note is sharp, the length is too short - move away from the head stock.
It is critical to retune the string to correct pitch after each and every adjustment.
So to clear, first detune, check for matching pitch, and adjust by moving the bridge.
Then tune up, check for matching pitch, adjust by moving the saddles, and retune after each adjustment
After you have done this, you should notice the relative positions of the saddles with respect to the bridge (which ones are more forward, which are centered, or more back). In the future you can repeat all of this but set the saddles in advance so that the overall configuration put their average displacement most in the center of the overall range of adjustment (keeps them most in their centers of range as much as possible) and so doing may lessen the amount of angle of the bridge as a whole.
And yeah, for bridges held by the strings' tension, most change one string at a time to keep the bridge from moving out of place...
Don't panic; you have a very nice guitar... take your time getting to know it and it will all work out fine!
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nut to middle 12th is exactly 12 inches. then its exactly 12 inches to back of last pick up. Measuring right to the end of the plastic base.
(I have been fooling with it)
then its 5/8 inch from PU end to the exact middle of the brass saddle. And I measure 7.4 mm from PU plastic end to bridge plastic edge. I set the height to 1.6mm high string 14 th fret and 2.0mm same low string....
is that good enough.??
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Too long, the bridge needs to move toward the pickup.
The scale length (what intonation does is match the sounding string length to the fret board's scale length) is the distance from the nut to the saddle... the crest of the 12th fret should be right about dead center.
Place the bridge by doing the high E string and the low E string.
Place the saddles for the other four strings... see my previous post.
That's the stuff we all think we know. I'm going to leave you in deacon Mark's hands, he knows much more.
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here is the way it looks now...the gap now from the base plastic of both things is 7.4mm. I wonder if the bridge was right up against the pick up edge,no gap...do you think thats where it was?? so I would just push it right up the back pick up and there would be no gap..?? here is a new pic...
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when you say end of nut...do you mean to include the whole nut thickness...? I was measuring from the inside edge and thats 12. But if you mean the whole thickness then its 12.5 and if I measure 12.5 onward I am right in the middle of the saddle within 1/8 to 1/16.....
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I did the intonation regimen using a tuner on Garageband. I got all the strings to match pitch/Harmonics
and set the string ht at 1.5mm hi E and 2.0mm low E 14th fret per Ibanez instructions.Now the distance between the plastic bases is 12mm.
now....if I measure from the FAR end of the nut(on the tuner side of it) and go to the 12 fret METAL than its 12.5 inch.And its 12.5 to the saddle exactly.When you said the middle of the 12th fret you meant the middle of the actual metal fret,not the middle of the black ebony space where I would put my finger.....,no?? cause my way works just right...
and since evrything else comes out right it has to be in the right place now,yes??
I want to hear perfect tuning on a C and F and D chord when I play them on the treble pickup,1rst position.If I dont..whats wrong??Cause I hear perfect tuning on other GBs videos on YTube..
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I can not see how the string ball end "fits or do not fit into the slot" plays role in intonation. (Of course it is required to fit to prevent buzz or sitar like sound).
Intonation depends mainly on correct bridge placement, in case of TOM also bridge settings, correct nut, and rare cases also some other setup issues like truss rod or action...
Btw coverig the tailpiece is not a "stupid design" it applied many high quality instruments too.
...and... keep it simple, and use little handheld mirror instead exploding a valuable instrument.
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is there a newer design aftermarket saddle I could install on this??something that has proved to work very well...
regarding the stupid design....would it have been too difficult to allow small access holes drilled into the wooden cover
so a person could see tht the ball end is indeed where it should be...it could be done now and made to look good and minimalist and tasteful.Maybe someone from Ibanez could comment. I saw that a Rep of theirs has made comments on the forum before..Last edited by 995; 03-07-2020 at 11:30 AM. Reason: edit
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The bridge you have has proved to work very well, for well over a hundred years. Your issue is the reason Gibson now pins their bridges. It's not rocket science, but it takes some experience and thought. The intonation is set by the bridge position, and the strings in the tailpiece have no effect at all on that, it's just the string length from the nut to the bridge. You have to measure carefully, and I do it by using the 1 inch mark against the inside of the nut, fingerboard side, to the center of the 12th fret wire. Then subtract 1 inch from that to account for using the 1 inch marker. The usual hook at the end of most tape measures moves too much to be really accurate. Then double the measurement you got above, and that's the nominal scale length. It will not be the actual length when the intonation is set, because you change things when you fret a note. The nominal scale length is just a starting point, not the final setting, and the length when intonation is set will almost always be slightly longer than nominal. Just adjust the saddles to near center on the bridge, place the bridge at or near the nominal scale length, adjust the action height (changing the action height affects intonation, so do this first), and then adjust intonation by moving the individual saddles with a screwdriver. You need a very accurate tuner for this. A strobe tuner is best, but maybe Garageband will work, although I have never used it for anything, so I have no idea how accurate it is. The harmonic and the fretted note at the 12th fret should match very closely on each string. The whole point of a tune-o-matic bridge is to allow good intonation on every string, and it does this well if you know what you're doing. The whole thing is not very intuitive, but practice helps. If you still can't get decent intonation, pony up some money and have a professional do it. Watch if possible. It is far less expensive to do it yourself, because it will be required many times in the future.
Another thought: Getting chords in first position to have correct intonation requires the nut slots to be cut to the proper depth. When that is done, the height of the strings above the first fret should be the same as the height above the second fret when the string is fretted at the first fret. Most nut slots are much too high from the factory, but it varies a lot. This needs to be done by someone who knows what he's doing, and takes practice to get right. You learn by doing, and ruining some nuts along the way. If you cut slots too deep it's not the end of the world, but it causes more work.
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Originally Posted by 995
995 please do not take this wrong but based on your answers I can tell you need to really do some schooling yourself on the guitar and scale lengths and what they mean. It might be wise to take to a tech and have them set it up and show you how to do it yourself. If you were a customer of mine I would be glad to do a complete set up on the guitar and explain each of the parts and how it works. If the guitar did not need anything other than getting the bridge back and intonation set. I would charge you $60 it would take about 1 hour to go through the process. In effect you would be paying me for a lesson in guitar set up and I was making sure it was set up correct. I believe this type of service is useful and well worth the money. It sort of is like seeking guitar lessons. The beauty of this is that I am not using any materials you just pay for what is in my head and some tips and pointers. All of this is available for self-schooling on the internet but frankly it would take many hours of time to figure it out and go through it. That is why I do this because it is not something you need tools for other than basics things around the house and it helps in completely understanding the guitar and how it works.
See if your local tech might be willing do this?
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I agree, the questions and attempts so far reveal very little understanding of the mechanics of the guitar, which is fine - no one knows these things naturally, they come with experience.
But for now, playing the guitar without it being set up is going to be pretty horrible - need to have a pro look at it.
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I met the basic set up requirements and I learned quite a bit. Its playing as good as before I screwed it up. I will talk to a tech and he can at least give me a grade on my work for free....I'm not spending any money on it..
I thought some electrics had some kind of self adjusting saddles now....maybe that was tuners...
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Gibson made (are making?) self tuning guitars and that is a total disaster. I can not understand how a company could underestimate its customers such a way... Originally Posted by 995
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The first time that happened to me I laughed my ass off and guesstimated where it went. A few tweaks later my intonation was set.
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excellent , that's how I learned , Originally Posted by 995
trial and error .....
also once I got it ,I marked the correct bridge position with a sharpie ....
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I think that’s how most of us learn, you buy an archtop guitar for the first time, never heard of moveable bridges, decide to put new strings on it, remove the old ones and hey presto! the bridge falls off the guitar.
So then you figure out that the bridge must go back such that the 12th fret harmonic on each string matches the fretted note as near as possible, then fine tune each one exactly using the adjustable saddles (if it’s got them). Actually my 175 originally came with a wooden bridge, no saddles, I couldn’t get it exactly in tune and anyway I found the sound a bit too ‘muddy’, so I replaced it with a metal tuneomatic bridge.
After that you tend to change the strings one at a time.
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"I met the basic set up requirements and I learned quite a bit..."
I don't believe it; there is no way the op has accidentally found proper intonation for his guitar. The op does not understand the fundamental idea of string length, asking which side of the nut constitutes that end, referencing the plastic borders of the pickup frames in finding the other end, and questioning whether the center of the 12th fret wire itself or the center between the 11th and 12th fret wires would be the center of the string length. The op needs to engage a pro. He does not have sufficient grasp of the mechanics. See bolded text of misunderstandings...
nut to middle 12th is exactly 12 inches. then its exactly 12 inches to back of last pick up. Measuring right to the end of the plastic base.
(I have been fooling with it)
then its 5/8 inch from PU end to the exact middle of the brass saddle. And I measure 7.4 mm from PU plastic end to bridge plastic edge. I set the height to 1.6mm high string 14 th fret and 2.0mm same low string....
is that good enough.??
here is the way it looks now...the gap now from the base plastic of both things is 7.4mm. I wonder if the bridge was right up against the pick up edge,no gap...do you think thats where it was?? so I would just push it right up the back pick up and there would be no gap..?? here is a new pic...
when you say end of nut...do you mean to include the whole nut thickness...? I was measuring from the inside edge and thats 12. But if you mean the whole thickness then its 12.5 and if I measure 12.5 onward I am right in the middle of the saddle within 1/8 to 1/16.....
I did the intonation regimen using a tuner on Garageband. I got all the strings to match pitch/Harmonics
and set the string ht at 1.5mm hi E and 2.0mm low E 14th fret per Ibanez instructions.Now the distance between the plastic bases is 12mm.
now....if I measure from the FAR end of the nut(on the tuner side of it) and go to the 12 fret METAL than its 12.5 inch.And its 12.5 to the saddle exactly.When you said the middle of the 12th fret you meant the middle of the actual metal fret,not the middle of the black ebony space where I would put my finger.....,no?? cause my way works just right...
and since evrything else comes out right it has to be in the right place now,yes??
I want to hear perfect tuning on a C and F and D chord when I play them on the treble pickup,1rst position.If I dont..whats wrong??Cause I hear perfect tuning on other GBs videos on YTube..
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The scale length of that guitar is 24.75". So...that's the length of vibrating string, approx.
You can see exactly where the bridge was in the first picture you posted. Distance from edge of pickup cover to bridge was slightly less than the width of the bridge base.
Originally Posted by 995
From nut edge to middle of 12th fret (wire) should be 12.375". You probably measured between 11th and 12th fret?
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The intonation on that guitar cannot be correct with the saddles in the positions they're in. The saddles adjust fore and aft using the screws in the front of the saddle, although I prefer turning the saddle the other way so the screws are easy to reach from the back with a screwdriver. With a tune-o-matic, you only have to set the bridge in the approximate position, then adjust the saddles for each string. The OP's ignorance is understandable, because we were all ignorant of how to do this until we learned. The good news is that ignorance is easily cured, it just means lack of knowledge and experience. Learning from those who already know things is how we get through life. Getting angry and refusing to listen to advice from those with experience is a losing proposition. But it's your life, and your guitar. You can learn to fix it or not.
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LOL! I've spent many an hour reversing the saddles on tune-o-matic bridges. Part of the joy of archtop ownership! Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Gibson (Henry J) spent iirc in excess of $200 million developing their complete fail of auto tuning guitars, which were standard issue on 2015 models. By 2016 they were shipping standard tuners to dealers for replacement for anyone who wanted them changed at purchase. Originally Posted by Gabor
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