The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: How do you feel about modelers?

Voters
201. You may not vote on this poll
  • I own a modeler, and it is my main rig

    63 31.34%
  • I own a modeler, which is not my main rig

    42 20.90%
  • I have tried a modeler and liked it

    20 9.95%
  • I have tried a modeler and did not like it

    30 14.93%
  • I have not tried a modeler, but I am interested

    22 10.95%
  • I have not tried a modeler, and am not interested

    24 11.94%
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Posts 76 to 100 of 214
  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410

    So.. how can people not at least be curious about modelers and want to try them? Odd.
    Because guitarplayers turn out to be very conservative.
    But to me there was allways this trouble with 'to many knobs'. I just keep adjusting them, because there is allways a possibillity that the best is somewhere hidden in the amp. That's why i like a simple amp. It's easy to get the best possible sound out of that. The trouble with that is that there allways amps that sound better . . .

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  3. #77

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    I've tried the Fender Mustang and owned a Roland Cube 30 for a couple of years. Once I got my first tube amp, I ditched the Roland and never looked back. That being said, I do use several pedals that are modelling in some fashion (a Boss FDR-1, a TC HOF and a Joyo AS) I assume. Definitely the FDR-1 cause it references COSM right on the pedal, so I don't consider myself to be an old skool purist. I confess to some curiosity with regards to Quilter. My thing is that I'm attracted to simplicity, both with pedals and amps (two of my amps have only one knob: Volume), and some of that modelling tech looks like the cockpit of a stealth bomber. I want plug and play, not plug and program.

  4. #78

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    I've written about this before. I was an axefx endorser. I thought it was 95% "as good" as a tube amp. A couple years ago, I jammed with local guitarist (and fender tube amp nut) frankie starr and brought my rig over to his place. We played a little and then I plugged into his twin with my '66 Kessel. I was blown away. It sounded easily 2x as good as the absolute BEST fender map model I could get with my axefx II and my FRFR speakers. Not even close. I realized I had been fooling myself the entire time.

    On the gig and to the audience, assuming you have a good sound person, maybe it's a wash but since I practice 100x more than I gig, I want a sound that I am totally in love with and for me, that's a real tube amp.

    I have played through the tonemaster amps and I do think they are the best if you're looking for a fender amp sound but i really dislike the jensen neo speakers. They sound pinched and middy to me and mush out at loud volumes. I did several gigs with a pair of 1x12 mojo cabs with those speakers in them and at low volume they sound great but on the gig it was EXTREMELY unpleasant. I would put up with the extra 4lb / speaker if they offered a version with a creamback. I see that the newest version of the amp uses a creamback neo but those have similar characteristics to the jensens in terms of that middy tone...

  5. #79

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    I’m going to agree with Jack here. My earlier comment in this thread is very specific to playing in bars and restaurants in a mix with other instruments. The Fractal Audio products have done extremely well for me and make life in those situations very easy. At home, I use tube amps.

  6. #80

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    I've been using Fractal modelers for years. Started with the Ultra, then the Axe Fx II, IIXL. I got the AX8 for live performances. I now have an Axe Fx III racked in the studio and a FM3 for live. Doing my first gig with it tomorrow. I love the convenience and ease of use and mobility.

  7. #81

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    The trouble with real amps is that I could never afford or even have room for what I'd like to have.
    The trouble with Axe or Kemper is that those are basically computers.. it's the code there. The software itself is not worth that much, but they charge so much for the box and knobs.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    The trouble with real amps is that I could never afford or even have room for what I'd like to have.
    The trouble with Axe or Kemper is that those are basically computers.. it's the code there. The software itself is not worth that much, but they charge so much for the box and knobs.
    and the 3rd problem: They don't really sound like the tube amps they're named after.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    The trouble with real amps is that I could never afford or even have room for what I'd like to have.
    The trouble with Axe or Kemper is that those are basically computers.. it's the code there. The software itself is not worth that much, but they charge so much for the box and knobs.
    But it’s the intellectual property. Cliff at Fractal designed a brilliant real time system. In the digital age you’re no longer placing much value on the cost of the parts. But rather how much is it worth to you? What is a fair price in terms of what it gives you?

    To me having amps that sound very close to the original, great effects and cabs is worth a lot. I like the convenience of not having to mic cabs or needing three or more amps to choose from live or in the studio. For me it’s more than worth the price. For you, not. And that’s fine.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #84

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    Yeah. I actually have no idea how close they are to most of the amps. I know the Deluxe Reverb is incredibly spot on. I have a REAL 1965 DR right here. The controls match and the tones match in the Axe Fx III. Sounds exactly the same to me. I used to have a Boogie Quad which is a Mark IIc and III something. It sounded very close to me. But ultimately I'm not really concerned whether it sounds exactly like the amps. I'm happy to dial in something that sounds good. I'm not too interested in sounding like. I just mess with mixing and matching opposite tone stacks. Come up with something new. This I can do in ways I'd never be able to do with real amps. I'm seriously, if I wanted it to sound exactly like the amp, I'd use the amp. LOL.

  11. #85

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    I am playing a Katana 50 almost exclusively now. The sneaky amps have been installed and I play mostly through the Fender Deluxe model or the Fender Tweed model. The tone is great and it is light. I have tube amps in the basement but they never come out. Tube amps need to be louder to sound good and I respect my neighbours. My tube amps are also too heavy haul up and down stairs night after night. finally, I have played some gigs with tube amps (in the past) but they kept breaking down.

    Frankly, my favourite amp is an old Roland VGA 5 (one of the early Roland modelling amps). It is extremely versatile and intuitive. With a foot controller you can access 10 patches. It is fantastic for covering a ton of tones on a gig (Marshalls, Vox, Twins etc). The only problem is the weight. It weighs over 65lbs and it is awkward. I do play that one at home though.

  12. #86

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    The thing that scares me about modelers is adjusting them on the fly at a gig. My experience is that the guitar sounds different to me at different times during the same gig. I think it's more my perception than reality, although sounds change as the room fills up and the other musicians vary their playing. I need something simple enough to use when my mind is on other things. A huge feature set may sell equipment, but I think for many players, it's simplicity and good sound that keeps it in use.

    So, I use the ME80 pedalboard. Everything is a knob except saving patches. It has enormous capability. Nonetheless, 95+% of the time I play one of two tones -- and one of them is clean with a little reverb. That goes into a Little Jazz most of the time. I get my sound, I forget about the gear and I can focus on the music. If I need more volume I usually use a Roland JC55, and sometimes both at once. Now and then I have to adjust something (usually the reverb level), in which case I push the Edit button, twist a knob and push Write. I tried the GT-1 and couldn't control it - enormous capability and the scrolling drove me crazy.

    I used to play a Mesa Boogie Mark III. Too complicated. Dial it in. Then the room fills up and maybe you want a tiny bit more treble. Prepare to move every knob on the amp. When you've got it dialed in correctly it sounds terrific, but it's too much trouble. It is also too heavy for comfortable movement.

    Here's another thing that scares me about modelers. I usually rewire the standard two HB guitar to have master volume and tone. The other two knobs are individual volume controls and I leave them full up almost all the time. Then, there's a volume pedal in the ME80, the output level knob and whatever else is affecting volume inside the ME80.. The Mark III has three volume controls if you're using the lead channel, and the tone controls significantly affect volume. How many volume controls is that? I'd lose track of the settings during a gig and end up with an overly complicated mess.

    I know an experienced modeler user can explain to me why these fears are unwarranted. But, I'm happy with the sound I'm getting now.

  13. #87

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    I think that's an excellent point and all 3 BIGTIME modelers I've tried (helix, axefx ii, kemper) sound like you have the loudness button engaged by default. WAY TOO MUCH bass and WAY TOO MUCH TREBLE. On all 3, turning down the bass to zero is typically not enough on the fender amp models. To avoid bottom heavy tones at gig volumes, you have to insert a graphic or parametric EQ or high pass filter. You can dial in the perfect tone in your bedroom but if you get to the gig and don't have an editing device and need to (on the fly) insert an eq and tweak it with the tiny on-screen editor - GOOD LUCK!

    Of course, you can add that in up front but it's still not like just reaching back and turning a knob. Even with the knobs on the kemper and AX8, i found that zeroing the bass wasn't enough at louder volumes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The thing that scares me about modelers is adjusting them on the fly at a gig. My experience is that the guitar sounds different to me at different times during the same gig. I think it's more my perception than reality, although sounds change as the room fills up and the other musicians vary their playing. I need something simple enough to use when my mind is on other things. A huge feature set may sell equipment, but I think for many players, it's simplicity and good sound that keeps it in use.

    So, I use the ME80 pedalboard. Everything is a knob except saving patches. It has enormous capability. Nonetheless, 95+% of the time I play one of two tones -- and one of them is clean with a little reverb. That goes into a Little Jazz most of the time. I get my sound, I forget about the gear and I can focus on the music. If I need more volume I usually use a Roland JC55, and sometimes both at once. Now and then I have to adjust something (usually the reverb level), in which case I push the Edit button, twist a knob and push Write. I tried the GT-1 and couldn't control it - enormous capability and the scrolling drove me crazy.

    I used to play a Mesa Boogie Mark III. Too complicated. Dial it in. Then the room fills up and maybe you want a tiny bit more treble. Prepare to move every knob on the amp. When you've got it dialed in correctly it sounds terrific, but it's too much trouble. It is also too heavy for comfortable movement.

    Here's another thing that scares me about modelers. I usually rewire the standard two HB guitar to have master volume and tone. The other two knobs are individual volume controls and I leave them full up almost all the time. Then, there's a volume pedal in the ME80, the output level knob and whatever else is affecting volume inside the ME80.. The Mark III has three volume controls if you're using the lead channel, and the tone controls significantly affect volume. How many volume controls is that? I'd lose track of the settings during a gig and end up with an overly complicated mess.

    I know an experienced modeler user can explain to me why these fears are unwarranted. But, I'm happy with the sound I'm getting now.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I used to play a Mesa Boogie Mark III. Too complicated. Dial it in. Then the room fills up and maybe you want a tiny bit more treble. Prepare to move every knob on the amp. When you've got it dialed in correctly it sounds terrific, but it's too much trouble. It is also too heavy for comfortable movement.
    But that's a great amp! Why didn't you dial in the correct tone and then adjust it to the correct sound when the room fills up?
    I must admit that i never ever had this problem though. On stage i didn't worry. I left that to the soundengineer (what's his name in english?).

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel_A
    But that's a great amp! Why didn't you dial in the correct tone and then adjust it to the correct sound when the room fills up?
    I must admit that i never ever had this problem though. On stage i didn't worry. I left that to the soundengineer (what's his name in english?).
    It absolutely is a great amp. I once had a guy come out of the audience and offer to buy my entire rig.

    But, what I said about minor adjustement is true. If I wanted to adjust the treble, a small increase raises the volume. I then have to lower the volume to compensate (using either master or channel gain) with the result that the EQ sounds different. More adjustment. An asymptotic process. Same thing for any other tweak. Change input volume or tone knobs and that changes the lead channel sound too.

    There's a third mode in there too -- if you make a mistake and screw up your tone, you may have to go on a scavenger hunt to figure out what's wrong. I once screwed up an entire set trying to figure out what was wrong with my tone. I made a mess of my usual settings and later discovered I'd flicked the pickup selector switch on my guitar by accident. Not the amp's fault, but when it happened, the amp looked suspicious to me.

    The onboard graphic EQ helped, but I still ended up fiddling sometimes. The last few times I used it, it was a large crowded noisy restaurant from the start of the first set. Dialed it in and didn't have to touch it. But that was more the exception than the rule. I've had it more than 30 years. Over that time, my tolerance for the weight has been reduced by age.

    I don't have all that many hours on it, I guess, but it's worth mentioning that it has never needed any work of any kind and sounds like new.

    OTOH, right now, it's alive in my music room because I'm recording with it. I need an intense lead sound for a project -- what better amp for that?

  16. #90

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    i've owned Mesa MK I, II, III and IV. IMO, they suffer from extreme, swiss-army-knife syndrome. Too many options, toggle switches, sliders, pull out knobs, class switching, etc. And as roger points out, the controls are too interactive so if all you want to do is add a teeny bit of treble, it ends up subtracting from the mids or bass and vice versa. Plus the reverb sucks on all the MK series amps. And on top of everything else, the 12L in there sounds super sterile to my ears unless you really crank it up which you almost never do on a jazz gig. I'd much rather play a fender.

  17. #91

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    They're ok except they're always acting like divas, fussing w their makeup and I hate when they order expensive meals and barely touch anything.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i've owned Mesa MK I, II, III and IV. IMO, they suffer from extreme, swiss-army-knife syndrome. Too many options, toggle switches, sliders, pull out knobs, class switching, etc. And as roger points out, the controls are too interactive so if all you want to do is add a teeny bit of treble, it ends up subtracting from the mids or bass and vice versa. Plus the reverb sucks on all the MK series amps. And on top of everything else, the 12L in there sounds super sterile to my ears unless you really crank it up which you almost never do on a jazz gig. I'd much rather play a fender.
    Jack, first of all that is Rick, not Roger that you referenced (Roger is Rpguitar, Rick is Rpjazzguitar). We have not seen much of Roger in recent years...

    Second, having owned a Mark IV, I agree, the amount of sound adjustment could be overwhelming but I eventually dialed in a sound I liked (with the EV speaker BTW, hated that amp with the Mesa branded Celestion) and I found that it worked pretty well for most gigs with a modicum of adjustments. Eventually the weight became an issue for all gigs, so away she went. My current Mesa is a first generation 50 Caliber and has so few knobs that it was kind of a failure with the Mesa channel switching fans (the second generation of this amp had way more knobs). The current generation of my amp is the Mark V 35 and has about the same number of knobs and switches as the Mark IV (I guess most Mesa fans like a Swiss Army Knife amp). My 50 Caliber sounds great with the Mesa Celestion to me (I am thinking it is the EL-84's). I find the Mesa reverbs acceptable, but I would concede, Fender reverbs are superior.

    At the moment, I own three tube amps, two Fenders and a Mesa. I like both brands myself.

  19. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I think that's an excellent point and all 3 BIGTIME modelers I've tried (helix, axefx ii, kemper) sound like you have the loudness button engaged by default. WAY TOO MUCH bass and WAY TOO MUCH TREBLE. On all 3, turning down the bass to zero is typically not enough on the fender amp models. To avoid bottom heavy tones at gig volumes, you have to insert a graphic or parametric EQ or high pass filter. You can dial in the perfect tone in your bedroom but if you get to the gig and don't have an editing device and need to (on the fly) insert an eq and tweak it with the tiny on-screen editor - GOOD LUCK!

    Of course, you can add that in up front but it's still not like just reaching back and turning a knob. Even with the knobs on the kemper and AX8, i found that zeroing the bass wasn't enough at louder volumes.
    I tried the Fractal 8EFX pedal board and and found way too much insertion loss of guitars true tone.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i've owned Mesa MK I, II, III and IV. IMO, they suffer from extreme, swiss-army-knife syndrome. Too many options, toggle switches, sliders, pull out knobs, class switching, etc. And as roger points out, the controls are too interactive so if all you want to do is add a teeny bit of treble, it ends up subtracting from the mids or bass and vice versa. Plus the reverb sucks on all the MK series amps. And on top of everything else, the 12L in there sounds super sterile to my ears unless you really crank it up which you almost never do on a jazz gig. I'd much rather play a fender.
    I agree about the reverb. I even had the factory reverb mod on mine, which allowed me to dial in a greater amount of bad sounding reverb.

    I always played with reverb in a box in front of the amp, so it didn't create a problem, but I was always surprised that the reverb was that bad in an amp that expensive and carefully made.

    I have the Mesa Black Shadow (I don't know the provenance) in a separate cab (that was to reduce the amount of weight at once). It sounds fine to me, but I'm probably not very picky in that way.

  21. #95

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    I'm new to modelers but take the time to make your own presets. Less is more if you want a clean sound. In one of the 9 blocks of effects on the Pod Go you can choose 'amp' or 'preamp'. I chose a Fender Tweed preamp and added some spring reverb.
    Very nice. It's the 1st time I haven' been annoyed playing guitar through headphones.
    I wouldn't call the 'modeling' of amp and cab sims hype, but as you can see from demos, rockers go straight to the overdrives and distortion. The Pod Go is actually no relation to the old Pods. It's a scaled down version of the Line 6 Helix.
    I think modelers have finally arrived at a reasonable price. There are few cons but as expected, the Fuzz effects suck and the compressors which I probably won't need aren't that great. Reverbs, delays, etc..are good. The layout of the box and software editor are excellent. Multi-effects can feel sluggish on all of these. Turn up the presence for a more immediate sound.
    The Pod Go is a considerable step up from the Boss ME80 I had a few years back. The noise reduction works well.

    Thumbs up for the Pod Go. It lives up to the hype.

  22. #96

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    I've been playing through a Strymon Iridium quite awhile now. I can get good sounds on the Fender DeLuxe setting or the Vox. Not very concerned if they sound like the original amps. Just want it to sound good. Overall a Fender Concert with an EV and a 2X12 extension cab sounds better. But I just pull out my heavy old gear when the mood hits. For day to day I want my practice rig and gigging rig to be the same and I'm not about to move 150 pounds of amp/speaker around.

    Also the Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speaker has a lot more to do with things than most of those thinking about the modeling plunge realize. Quality of the speaker itself of course. But also how you place the speaker (e.g. on the floor, on a stand, reflected off a wall or corner, direct radiate, off axis) makes a big difference in what you hear in your practice space.

  23. #97

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    I own a Boss Katana 50 Mk2.

    To be honest I don't know the amps it models (it has 5 channels with variation switch for each of them - acoustic, clean, crunch, lead and brown) and I use acoustic and clean 95% of the time.
    It also has nice effects and has aux in to jam along backing tracks and I can use it to record my playing either using the USB interface or using headphone/line out (that way I can capture both the backing track and my playing - useful when recording videos).
    It also has power switch - 0.5, 25 and 50 watt. That way I can play at bedroom levels.

    The best thing... It is cheap (220 € new shipped) and portable.

    I must say I am quite happy with it

  24. #98

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    Here is a video of Frank Gambala’s rig rundown. I was wondering how he achieved his sound, since i really enjoy his sound. Turns out to be dv mark modeling . . .

    Last edited by Marcel_A; 10-03-2020 at 11:41 AM.

  25. #99

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    I have a split personality – or rather just play in two different bands:

    In the 8 piece funk band I use an analog modeler – the tech 21 flyrig. We are using in ear monitoring so IMHO there's no point in bringing an amp (our base player disagrees so he still runs his bass through a small cabinet). Everybody loves the tone I'm getting with the fly rig, a telecaster and a Cry Baby. I could go to gigs by bike. The fly rig gives me all the options I really need like boost and distortion and it feels natural. Theres a slight difference in dynamics – it sounds more like a produced tone than like an amp in the room. I'm going for a clean tone to get the funk rhythms as tight as I can.

    In the organ trio OTOH I use a Fender Vibrolux or Blues jr. tube amp with my ES 330 or Ibanez GB and a cable. I like the slight breakup when we dig in deep and I love the dynamic response and punch from the amp. We mostly gig small places without a PA (before Corona) so again this is also the most pragmatic setup for this gig.

    I am very sensitive to latency – have tried some of the digital modelers plus what logic offers. At like 3 ms with the Motu interface it still feels not right to me – maybe the numbers shown in the preferences are wrong? But when trying a Kemper in the music store I had the same feeling. I'm sure I can't HEAR 3 ms, but I can FEEL it. It feels like having sex with a very thick condom if that makes sense ...

  26. #100

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    Bad.