The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    but I don’t want a super 400. can I have a Trenier instead?
    Of course, anything you want! <tonedexter>"it's on me, Kenny G."</tonedexter>

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    its just very bright and dry compared to what most people are used to. Most jazz guitar tones were back then. players dialled in tones that cut and learned how to play through it on the bandstand often in difficult sonic conditions. These days I think people can be very finicky about tone because the tech has improved. But it still doesn’t help if you have a bad room.
    Ah okay yes, I see what you mean. I rather like a dry sound, but the excess treble is tiring. They should make a reverse ToneDexter that can restore the amplified sound to that of what would have come from the pick-up; then they could feed that into modern amplifiers.

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  3. #27

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    I'm always interested to see how this works out, since I've been so disappointed with the various "contact" pickup solutions, at least in how they render the way archtops sound different than flattops.

    One note for the "sampling" process - when I recorded my solo guitar CD, I was amazed at how different the guitar sounded when accidentally sat down the angle of my guitar changed.

    The engineer had 6 mics set up (two stereo pairs, and then one for the body and one for the fretboard), and I was mindful of the plane in front of me to keep things consistent. But there was one take early on where I had accidentally set down with the neck maybe 5° further toward the mics than flat, and it completely neutered the full-ness of the guitar.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Try the Clingon pickup. Fareed Haque just put it on his flamenco. Ridiculously easy to attach. Sounds ok. Cheap. You can use two on a guitar, easily, to emphasize different tonal qualities. I just bought two. Will put it on my Brahms guitar.

    Doesn't sound too bad...and cheap.

    How does the magnet thing work, you put one side inside the guitar and then put the other half on the top?

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Doesn't sound too bad...and cheap.

    How does the magnet thing work, you put one side inside the guitar and then put the other half on the top?
    yeah. Attach one with a little bit of putty to the inside of the guitar, via the sound hole.
    Outer pickup automatically attaches via magnet.


  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zina
    Of course, anything you want! <tonedexter>"it's on me, Kenny G."</tonedexter>



    Ah okay yes, I see what you mean. I rather like a dry sound, but the excess treble is tiring. They should make a reverse ToneDexter that can restore the amplified sound to that of what would have come from the pick-up; then they could feed that into modern amplifiers.
    look Wes was a pro. Sometimes pros have sounds that are more about how they cut through the mix than how they sound as a preconceived idea of what’s ‘good tone’ and certainly what’s easy to play.

    I think Wes’s sound is amazing. Well except on incredible jazz guitar. Then it’s, not great, but it doesn’t really matter.

    im just saying this is yet another area where I personally would struggle to step into Wes’s shoes. But there is a lesson to be learned. The lesson I learned a while back was, every touch of your tone control takes you one step closer to eternal damnation. Keep that sucker on ten. Your audience needs it.

    I saw Krantz play the other night through a crunchy Marshall JCM800 with no reverb. Dry as a bone I tell you. He suffers so we might truly live.

    For this reason I do wonder if the TD will be less useful than it seems. We’ll see...

  7. #31

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    I've been using a Tonedexter for flat tops for quite some time. They work very well with full range pickups. Which is not what magnetic pickups are.

    These are an automated graphic equalizer with lots of bands. If the sound isn't there in the first place, as is the case with magnetic pickups, it won't work all that well. Ironically, piezo's which are pretty awful things requiring some effort to not sound quacky are a good choice to run a Tonedexter. Also, the unit is a pretty nice little preamp with useful settings and flexible outputs.

    There is a list of pickups it works with as well as many it doesn't on the vendors site (look under guitar pickups) Audio Sprockets | Support for ToneDexter including Docs and Downloads

  8. #32

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    I was at a workshop with Gypsy guitarist Joscho Stephan some weeks ago. I sat next to him for two days, and heard his amplified tone at the workshop concert. He was using the Tonedexter and raving about it.

    He said he had mic‘ed the guitar using a Neumann and trained the Tonedexter to produce that sound with the Bigtone pickup he‘d had for years. However, he would augment it, depending on the situation, with a little mic clipped to the soundhole.

    It was really the guitar sound, only louder.


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  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    look Wes was a pro. Sometimes pros have sounds that are more about how they cut through the mix than how they sound as a preconceived idea of what’s ‘good tone’ and certainly what’s easy to play.

    The lesson I learned a while back was, every touch of your tone control takes you one step closer to eternal damnation. Keep that sucker on ten. Your audience needs it.

    ...with no reverb. Dry as a bone I tell you. He suffers so we might truly live.
    I keep forgetting that they played all the time, and had to do that to be properly heard. I don't like treble or reverb or other effects, so I promise to contribute to your redemption too when the Royal Albert Hall finally calls - a Marshall goes too far though, that's martyrdom.

    Then how about this: "The JazzBubble"; an inflatable cocoon you can sit in and enjoy your sound while the audience gets hit by 3D Turbo-Tone. "Filters Yellin' & Retchin' & Clinkin' of Glasses; But Not To Worry, The Applause Passes".

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    I was at a workshop with Gypsy guitarist Joscho Stephan some weeks ago. I sat next to him for two days, and heard his amplified tone at the workshop concert. He was using the Tonedexter and raving about it.

    He said he had mic‘ed the guitar using a Neumann and trained the Tonedexter to produce that sound with the Bigtone pickup he‘d had for years. However, he would augment it, depending on the situation, with a little mic clipped to the soundhole.

    It was really the guitar sound, only louder.


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    ah so they are catching on in the GJ community

    i did another pass at training it, and tbh I had to keep bypassing it because I couldn’t tell it was on. When half my sound dropped out, I realised it was being amplified haha

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    I've been using a Tonedexter for flat tops for quite some time. They work very well with full range pickups. Which is not what magnetic pickups are.

    These are an automated graphic equalizer with lots of bands. If the sound isn't there in the first place, as is the case with magnetic pickups, it won't work all that well. Ironically, piezo's which are pretty awful things requiring some effort to not sound quacky are a good choice to run a Tonedexter. Also, the unit is a pretty nice little preamp with useful settings and flexible outputs.

    There is a list of pickups it works with as well as many it doesn't on the vendors site (look under guitar pickups) Audio Sprockets | Support for ToneDexter including Docs and Downloads
    Could do with a more flexible eq, LR Baggs style. That’s my only concern

    EDIT - that list is predictably geared towards flattop players, no gypsy jazz or archtop pickups listed.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Could do with a more flexible eq, LR Baggs style. That’s my only concern

    EDIT - that list is predictably geared towards flattop players, no gypsy jazz or archtop pickups listed.
    The EQ could be better. But considering the raison d'etre thought it was a pretty good all around unit.

    We have to extrapolate from the pickups listed. For example a K&K Definity will need good positioning under the bridge to get a good frequency capture. Need to experiment with mine. Kind of gave up on it. Single coils and humbuckers won't work well. Even a Sunrise, a pickup I have in several guitars and is about as good as acoustic magnetic pickups get, doesn't work well with the Tonedexter. It's possible the Fishman piezo saddle will work. Been meaning to get one to try it out. And maybe the K&K archtop (same as their bass product with 2 transducers) if you can only get the discs in just the right place. Hard with F holes. Hard given we move the bridge for intonation with string type changes. Have tried and failed with those but there's likely a pony in that picture somewhere.

    And here I thought you the dedicated Luddite...

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Could do with a more flexible eq, LR Baggs style. That’s my only concern
    that's why I run my zoom cdr70 right after it. Each of my guitars have different woods, sizes and pickup systems, so each needs fairly different eq'ing. I don't boost anything, just make surgical cuts and gentle tone sharing with the parametric eq, and use the graphic as a high pass filter. This corrects the tone and removes the frequencies most likely to feed back.

    Then a little verb and we're good.

    I thought I'd want a "better" eq at first, but making a preset saves so much time (though it was a little laborious). And while most cheap eqs struggle to boost, any old thing can cut. I didn't think the eq options on the tone Dexter were much. They're ok on the fishman, but I like my method so much more.


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    did another pass at training it, and tbh I had to keep bypassing it because I couldn’t tell it was on. When half my sound dropped out, I realised it was being amplified haha
    I do the same thing. I'm suddenly in stereo and I zone out and when I turn it off it's back in mono. I sometimes slap the reverb every now and again to make sure it's still working. Glad it is going well for you.

  14. #38

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    Hi there, any new thoughts on your tonedexter purchase? I'm still thinking of buying one. I'm kinda tired of using a mag pickup. My altamira has a shatten so I'm thinking of just trying it out with that and seeing what happens.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    And you could probably run that into a ToneDexter.

    It sounds not unlike the Schertler Dyn-G to my ears, which is a complement for a piezo, esp one that costs a fraction of the price. A lot of thoughtful features. Probably not the most robust solution feedback wise however.
    Follow up from Fareed Haque:

    "Tonight was the first concert using the amazing Clingon Pickup. Vocal jazz concert with bass, drums, vibraphone piano and trumpet featuring amazing jazz singer Janice Borla.I popped the pick- up on, plugged it into my Henriksen amp, turned the volume up and played with the band. NO feedback, minimal EQ and real acoustic sound. I'm blown away by this amazing little bit of intelligent, thoughtful, practical technology.
    Go get one!

  16. #40

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    I bought the ToneDexter over a year ago to use with my Martin dreads. At the time I bought it, I was only gigging with an acoustic guitar trio with vocal.

    I trained it with both SD and LD mics, both in the $300-$400 range – good, solid mics, but not high-end. TD recommends SD mics, but I didn't notice that the SD examples sounded better than the LD. The TD lets you save 20 different wave maps, so I kept them all (with a label on the bottom of the TD so I'd remember which was which).

    I trained 3 flattops: a Martin D-18 Authentic, a 12-fret D-28 Authentic, and a Running Dog mini jumbo built by Rick Davis, all with K&K Pure Mini pickups. All 3 sounded noticeably better with the TD – more like a mic'd guitar, with the quackiness almost completely gone.

    At gigs, I used it exclusively with the D-18A, which is the guitar I used to use when I played with the trio. I have used it a couple of times with the D-28A, which really shines with its lush fullness shown off by the TD.

    Apparently, John Jorgenson is a big fan.

    I never did any recording with the TD; since I have the mics, it makes much more sense to use the mics for recording...

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    I bought the ToneDexter over a year ago to use with my Martin dreads. At the time I bought it, I was only gigging with an acoustic guitar trio with vocal.

    I trained it with both SD and LD mics, both in the $300-$400 range – good, solid mics, but not high-end. TD recommends SD mics, but I didn't notice that the SD examples sounded better than the LD. The TD lets you save 20 different wave maps, so I kept them all (with a label on the bottom of the TD so I'd remember which was which).

    I trained 3 flattops: a Martin D-18 Authentic, a 12-fret D-28 Authentic, and a Running Dog mini jumbo built by Rick Davis, all with K&K Pure Mini pickups. All 3 sounded noticeably better with the TD – more like a mic'd guitar, with the quackiness almost completely gone.

    At gigs, I used it exclusively with the D-18A, which is the guitar I used to use when I played with the trio. I have used it a couple of times with the D-28A, which really shines with its lush fullness shown off by the TD.

    Apparently, John Jorgenson is a big fan.

    I never did any recording with the TD; since I have the mics, it makes much more sense to use the mics for recording...

  18. #42

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    Another video. Retrained the TD and for some better Wavemaps.



    i put mic by the lower bout pointing toward my picking hand which seemed to help with finger squeak. Also did it in a drier acoustic.

    i like that I can record with a click and multitrack without cans. Not a huge thing or that important, but a nice bonus.

    also reamping dry di acoustic guitars which is what I did to make the vid. Quite handy.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    The EQ could be better. But considering the raison d'etre thought it was a pretty good all around unit.

    We have to extrapolate from the pickups listed. For example a K&K Definity will need good positioning under the bridge to get a good frequency capture. Need to experiment with mine. Kind of gave up on it. Single coils and humbuckers won't work well. Even a Sunrise, a pickup I have in several guitars and is about as good as acoustic magnetic pickups get, doesn't work well with the Tonedexter. It's possible the Fishman piezo saddle will work. Been meaning to get one to try it out. And maybe the K&K archtop (same as their bass product with 2 transducers) if you can only get the discs in just the right place. Hard with F holes. Hard given we move the bridge for intonation with string type changes. Have tried and failed with those but there's likely a pony in that picture somewhere.

    And here I thought you the dedicated Luddite...
    The irony that the convincing and practical amplification of 1930s jazz guitar seems to require advanced technology is not lost on me.

  20. #44

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    Ok I'm venturing down this path with you. I just bought a used TD. I've got to try it for myself. Its sounding good in your last video!

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    I bought the ToneDexter over a year ago to use with my Martin dreads. At the time I bought it, I was only gigging with an acoustic guitar trio with vocal.

    I trained it with both SD and LD mics, both in the $300-$400 range – good, solid mics, but not high-end. TD recommends SD mics, but I didn't notice that the SD examples sounded better than the LD. The TD lets you save 20 different wave maps, so I kept them all (with a label on the bottom of the TD so I'd remember which was which).

    I trained 3 flattops: a Martin D-18 Authentic, a 12-fret D-28 Authentic, and a Running Dog mini jumbo built by Rick Davis, all with K&K Pure Mini pickups. All 3 sounded noticeably better with the TD – more like a mic'd guitar, with the quackiness almost completely gone.

    At gigs, I used it exclusively with the D-18A, which is the guitar I used to use when I played with the trio. I have used it a couple of times with the D-28A, which really shines with its lush fullness shown off by the TD.

    Apparently, John Jorgenson is a big fan.

    I never did any recording with the TD; since I have the mics, it makes much more sense to use the mics for recording...
    I understand Molly Tuttle mostly uses a WaveMap she based on an SM57 live. This makes a lot of sense to me, hifi is less important in a band mix.

  22. #46

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    The difference is much more evident in this videoclip than in the first one. Even if it only reduced squeak and rattle - I mean that metallic new strings sound - it would be an improvement, but it adds warmth too.

  23. #47

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    Just played with my tonedexter for the first time. Made a wavemap using neumann km184. My altamira has a schatten passive piezo. Its doesn't sound great on its own. Kinda dull and boxy and a bit hollow sounding. So far the TD can get rid of most of that problem. Really depends on where I set the character knob (pickup/TD blend mix). About 2/3 sounds really nice at home thru my AER.

    I wanted to ask where anyone who is playing with one of these finds themselves setting the character knob?

    Thanks

  24. #48

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    Yeah Ok I just thought I’d update this thread.

    after I posted on this forum and before Rona and did a short tour on a flattop with the Tonedexter (for some listening gigs) and was basically in Tonal Nirvana every night. I have a desk recording to prove it too.

    Since then they’ve updated the firmware which they say makes (new) Wavemaps sound better apparently.

    OTOH, using my Selmac it’s a more mixed bag. I used it on my first Hot Club of Jupiter gig (live date at London Transport Museum, NOT the livestream) and was really pretty happy with the ‘acoustic ness’ if it, and interestingly the dynamic control I could get out of my playing which is often a problem with piezos on GJ guitars.

    (I was really not 100% happy with the sound on the livestream, which is the K&K Definity straight in. I think I thought the TD would annoy the engineer. )

    However I was really in two minds about whether to dial in the resonance (CHR02) or keep it EQ (CHR00); both sounded good. But the finger squeak is fairly obnoxious (again I am using a K&K Definity) and I was cutting a lot of treble to tame it. I think that’s inherent microphonicness of the pickup coming out. I have the same problem with my other Definity equipped guitar, and no such problem with the cheapo Fishman USTs I have on my flattops.

    There’s also a slightly odd artefact-y overtone which is not so bad if you keep the pickup trim lowish and isn’t too much of a problem in the band, but bugs me when using it in the studio.

    I was also using a different amp; instead of the AER, a TC electronic BAM 200 into a Toob metro BG. This amp is amazing for the weight but it’s never going to be an AER. Volume wise it was more than equal to the task of playing with drums, but it definitely got ‘pokey’ as small speakers are wont to do. (The Toob FR I have is not usable with this set up btw; the last thing I want with this rig is more high end haha.)

    Anyway people seemed to like the sound.

    So… this makes me think that a bigtone might get better results. But audio of this combo is thin on the ground, and if like to know more before changing the pickup, esp as they are harder and more expensive for me to get hold of post Brexit.

    Other point; TD can be noisy if you aren’t careful about how you use the FX loop. If you follow their advice the unit actually runs very quiet.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-28-2021 at 12:45 PM.

  25. #49

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    My best solution so far was a Barbera Soloist into a Tone Dexter.
    This worked very well with an Aria D'Aquisto.

    I'm currently looking for a new pickup, since my Barbera broke and I've sold that guitar.

    I don't like contact mics, they pick up too much handling noise and resonances for my taste, so I'm considering a traditional piezo saddle.
    I've tried the Fishman archtop bridge: horrible, even through the Tone Dexter.

    Maybe I may ask a local luthier to put a traditional piezo saddle into an archtop bridge.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrwoland
    My best solution so far was a Barbera Soloist into a Tone Dexter.
    This worked very well with an Aria D'Aquisto.

    I'm currently looking for a new pickup, since my Barbera broke and I've sold that guitar.

    I don't like contact mics, they pick up too much handling noise and resonances for my taste, so I'm considering a traditional piezo saddle.
    I've tried the Fishman archtop bridge: horrible, even through the Tone Dexter.

    Maybe I may ask a local luthier to put a traditional piezo saddle into an archtop bridge.