Poll - Solid State vs Tube Amps for Jazz Guitar

**takefive** · 02-21-2020, 04:54 PM

Since I've gotten my Boss Katana 50 the Fender Blues Deville stays home.

**ccroft** · 02-21-2020, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I don't believe that, but you see comments like, "once, in the 1970s, I played a cheap SS amp and it sucked.

That was me, and it was all tubeness up until a couple years ago I decided to try Quilter. So that's like... 50 years of tube amps. Not a huge number of them, but some plenty good ones. And that early '70 Kustom twin sized amp was a very nasty bit of business indeed.

There's a lot of these type threads at the moment. Somebody was talking about sag. I think that Pat Quilter has it pretty much nailed. Especially for the 'edge of breakup' thing. That's where I live mostly. Great thing is though, if you don't want sag you can easily dial it out by tweaking gain & master.

How saggy is a Twin? I haven't played one for so long I can't remember it. If I'm not mistaken they're SS rectified?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 02-24-2020, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

How saggy is a Twin? I haven't played one for so long I can't remember it. If I'm not mistaken they're SS rectified?

You're right if you think a Twin Reverb isn't saggy. Big output transformer and SS rectified. Folks who are into sag go from tweeds and smaller amps.

This is why I think it was a good idea to create the Tone Master Twin Reverb.

**Tal_175** · 02-24-2020, 12:52 PM

Princeton is pretty saggy.

**wzpgsr** · 02-24-2020, 01:00 PM

How noticeable is sag at gain levels below break-up?

**Tal_175** · 02-24-2020, 01:14 PM

Princeton's when loud enough to get punchy but still clean (volume around 4-5) feel saggy to me. That's if you compare with a solid state amp. I've never A/B Princeton and Twin for sag though.
That saggy feeling is also a function of the speakers. Alnico's generally more saggy feeling to me than ceramics which feel more immediate.

**John A.** · 02-24-2020, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

How noticeable is sag at gain levels below break-up?

Recently, I had a plug-in solid state rectifier in place of the rectifier tube in my PR briefly (temporary replacement loaned to me by a tech while waiting for a new rectifier tube to be delivered). The difference between the two was noticeable well before break-up level volumes. There's a sharper, more trebly sound to the attack at every volume with the ss than with the tube, and more clean headroom. In contrast, there's more compression at any volume with tube, and a touch more harmonic richness and sustain (a product of compression, I assume) just short of actual break-up that kicks in earlier than with the ss. Not a huge difference, but enough of one that that I was happy to go back to the tube rectifier.

John

**Greentone** · 02-24-2020, 01:29 PM

The Twin Reverb and the Showman aren't saggy amps--for the reasons stated above. Great amps.

IIRC, the Showman has a linear taper volume pot, too. (Maybe the TR, also, but I don't think so.) This means that the volume doesn't go from zero to full on by 4-5. It's a great amp for all sorts of applications. Bi#@h to re-tube, though.

**Tal_175** · 02-24-2020, 01:34 PM

Apparently the phase inverter of Princeton's contribute to their saggy feeling. I don't really know much about that though.

**Alter** · 02-24-2020, 04:57 PM

The whole "sag" feel is a specific "dynamic" feel present in tube amplifiers, a certain reaction to the notes. It actually comes from power supply voltage dropping when there is a strong signal through the amp. It is generally not found in solid state amps, unless a specific circuit tries to emulate or create it.

More or less three things contribute to it. Firstly the rectifier tube, second the transformers, and third the filter capacitors. That's why whether a tube amp has a tube rectifier or not is such a big deal feel-wise. Not all players (or music styles) enjoy saggy amps!

And the second big difference between tube and solid state is compression and clipping, done differently on each type. I would put digital and modelling amps on a third category, because the moment sound becomes digital, a whole new array of problems, challenges and possibilities arises. I have played a lot of analog solid state amps i liked a lot, but i never liked anything digital, although i also use digital often (not even the Kemper or Axe fx which i have never owned, but have borrowed for gigs.) But that's just me and my aesthetic, other players greatly enjoy them.

My main amps are tubes, but i play a lot with solid state amps too, mainly for the convenience.

**citizenk74** · 02-24-2020, 10:00 PM

The front end of a plucked guitar string note is a hot mess. The initial attack is the strongest and most chaotic part of the note.The string has not yet settled into its stable, harmonically sorted period of vibration. I like a little sag for that reason. Coupled with soft-knee compression and judicious use of the plectrum, it allows me (on a good night) to shape the note into something I want to hear. The note is not just clean, it's cleaned up.

The top of an archtop or flattop performs much the same function, as much of the initial energy of the stroke is used to set the top in motion, slightly delaying the fullness of the note and allowing the coherent harmonic vibration to dominate.

At least, that's my thinking on it. YMMV.

**Boogaloo** · 02-25-2020, 11:38 AM

I know lots here fear the maintenance of a tube amp and that and weight keep some from the best sounding amps out there. I often get tricked into buying the modelling or transistor amps every once in a while just to see if things are improving. I doubt I will ever buy another SS or modelling amp.
To curb owner anxiety of these great tube amps: learn how to bias and change tubes. Buy a cathode bias class “a” and never worry about biasing again. I learned how to bias Marshall (class a/b) amps from tutorials and did it very successfully for many years now. Several of my friends bring their heads to me to be retubed and biased. It’s easy when you learn. Just remove the chassis, find the bias points and touch nothing and I mean nothing but the bias points and adjustment screw There will be a bias adjustment screw close by. You will need a multimeter.
As far as weight goes I can’t really see 35 to 45lbs as being a dealbreaker. I’m 60. Get a cart if you have to walk far.
So what if the tubes go down in the middle of a gig? Throw a spare in, it’ll get you home.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-25-2020, 11:54 AM

Spare tubes at a jazz gig? Are my roadies supposed to be responsible for those?

**Boogaloo** · 02-25-2020, 03:29 PM

You do have roadies, don’t you?

**mr. beaumont** · 02-25-2020, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Boogaloo

You do have roadies, don’t you?

Buncha beer drinkers and hell raisers.

**Boogaloo** · 02-25-2020, 04:07 PM

Makes for a crazy good time. I really miss them.

**50Hz** · 02-26-2020, 03:24 PM

I've got an old orange cube 100 and a G50ii 1x12 and so far haven't felt like I'm missing much in the clean tone department. I'm not opposed to tubes, but I've never been super particular about amps cause I've always been able to get a usable tone from the gear I've got. It's the playing that I've needed to tweak.

**Stefan Eff** · 02-28-2020, 05:14 PM

Poll - Solid State vs Tube Amps for Jazz Guitar-e0f84da8-eeed-45da-b28a-5fb7c2692bd4-jpg

Sorry for the twisted picture

**Mecena** · 03-01-2020, 04:46 AM

SS all the way. I hate tubes.

**Boogaloo** · 03-01-2020, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mecena

SS all the way. I hate tubes.

I was hoping you could elaborate on that statement. How many tube amps have you owned? What are the circumstances around your “hatred of tubes”. There must be some circumstances where a tube amp has really let you down. Was it in the middle of a gig or practice. You definitely experienced tube trauma of some sort.
Details?

**Mecena** · 03-01-2020, 10:42 AM

Heavy as f**k. Like 75 pounds for head and 2x12 box. XD
Retubing for 7 tubes costs 220$ .... I live on minimal paycheck.
Since I live where I live, I needed to drive 35 miles for retubing also.

I think this should do it for now. xD

**Mecena** · 03-01-2020, 10:55 AM

Luckily I found a solution - I will buy DV Mark Little Jazz, that would make me perfectly happy.

**BBGuitar** · 03-01-2020, 12:15 PM

I know someone who builds high end, hand wired, tube amps.

He says to me, If someone is stupid enough to pay me stupid money to build one of these stone age beasts I will build it for them.

He makes good money as a side line. Laughs all the way to the bank.

**Stefan Eff** · 03-01-2020, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by BBGuitar

I know someone who builds high end, hand wired, tube amps.

He says to me, If someone is stupid enough to pay me stupid money to build one of these stone age beasts I will build it for them.

He makes good money as a side line. Laughs all the way to the bank.

It‘s always a shame if someone hates what he does.

**Boogaloo** · 03-01-2020, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mecena

Heavy as f**k. Like 75 pounds for head and 2x12 box. XD
Retubing for 7 tubes costs 220$ .... I live on minimal paycheck.
Since I live where I live, I needed to drive 35 miles for retubing also.

I think this should do it for now. xD

There are MANY tube amps far lighter than the one you have described. Even combos that weigh as light as 35 lbs. Driving 35 miles is a very short distance. Sure tubes cost but how often do you need to change them? I happy you got a little jazz. Must be more amp than you need. Would you mind telling us which 75lb head and 2x12 cab you are/were using. Congrats on the lj.