The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    I really feel that it's about the whole package, including the guitar, strings, pick, amp electronics, cabinet (esp. open back vs. closed), speaker and positioning. I have the "prototype" v1 (no serial number) Henriksen/Sound Island "Alfresco" with the older Gen 1 electronics (but which includes a nifty phase reversal switch) and mediocre reverb, and a Weber "Black Shuck" speaker. The package of 12" open back with that speaker works really well with guitars that are not too dark sounding (and is more forgiving re: positioning with guitars that are not very deep). I don't think it tries to be tube-y at all and yet it kind of succeeds in doing so i.e. gets some nice mild overdrive when pushed, and by this point there have been quite a few newer and probably better electronics that have come out. I've gone through a lot of amps, including some tube amps, and for me this now somewhat-dated v1 Alfresco just works well enough all things considered. A bit heavy but being compact and SS transportation is not too bad.

    I do think that some of the unique sound we associate with tube amps come from the fact that they are usually open-back rather than closed back like most SS amps. I like how the Henriksen Blu (and perhaps the new Ten?) have a tweeter; that extra little bit of dispersion helps them sound a bit more like open back amps IMO.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    And also the tweeter makes them usable with acoustic guitars (or supports greatly the acoustic-round strings type of sound in archtops too) which is a great added value!

  4. #53

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    My 2 cents ....

    two different things are going on here
    which sometimes are conflated

    1 Clean jazz sounds

    the amp doesn't matter that much other than
    that it's big enough and will drive the speaker load ok
    ie with a decent EQ on board or pedal you can usually tweek it to
    get your sound

    the speaker/cabinet will however have a large effect on the sound
    character , timber , disspertion etc

    2 dirt and 'hair' and overdriven sounds

    the way the amp goes into overdrive and the
    type of distorted sounds is MUCH more complex
    than 1 above
    this explanes why so many players who want some dirt
    in their sounds are so particular about their amps
    fair doos

    the speaker/enclosure will have all the above factors
    plus a complex relationship with the output stage of the amp
    with the reactive load of the speaker

    1 simple
    2 complex , very

    Most of the old skool straight ahead players like Barney , Herb
    Joe etc that played clean , didn't massively care
    about the amp they used as long as it
    spoke loud enough for the gig

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Most of the old skool straight ahead players like Barney , Herb
    Joe etc that played clean , didn't massively care
    about the amp they used as long as it
    spoke loud enough for the gig
    To the extent that Joe and Herb often didn't even use amps, having DI boxes and going straight to the PA.

  6. #55

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    Getting to be closer to that age, I totally get it!

  7. #56

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    I have, and have used, both. A friend and I both showed up at a jam with SS Princeton Chorus 65s and he remarked that he had seen Joe Negri (Mr. Rogers' jazz guitarist friend) carrying one down the street in Pittsburgh (hometown of George Benson and Andy Warhol and quite a few of my friends). Had a good laugh. Great tone.
    Did a lot of jazz gigs with my DRRI. No complaints. Branching out with solo/small ensemble work, my original tweed JazzKat did the job nicely, with its dedicated mic channel and nice selection of effects. But as a practical performing tool, my Acoustic Image Corus Series III takes the cake. Three-hundred SS watts, XLR channel, defeatable tweeter, 1 - 8" forward midrange spkr, 1 - 10" down-firing woofer, @ 20#, its a complete sound reinforcing package.

    I can get nice jazz tones with my tube amps, and nice jazz tones with my solid state amps. The tones are all similar, but not identical; but nevertheless all jazz through and through. Horses for courses, as they say.

    Of course a Twin Reverb and a full-time roadie would be ideal.

  8. #57

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    Dialogue seems to center mostly around run of the mill mass produced tube amps vs solid state, but as the OP wonders, what about state of the art tube boutique quality amps??? I feel that the highest quality engineered tube amplifier has the finest musical tone available and can't yet be matched by solid state. Not yet.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Dialogue seems to center mostly around run of the mill mass produced tube amps vs solid state, but as the OP wonders, what about state of the art tube boutique quality amps??? I feel that the highest quality engineered tube amplifier has the finest musical tone available and can't yet be matched by solid state. Not yet.
    I have owned (and own) "boutique" tube amps.... the only difference (between boutique and mass-produced) is in the construction, not the tone. Sometimes the MP amps have a higher noise floor, but some boutique amps are noisy too.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I think the new thing is the D class amps, that huge power in tiny packaging that's so practical, with good heat management these days. If only it was possible to have the same development in speakers... alas physics!

    With speakers we can go with neodimium magnets and
    With cabinets hard poly plastic enclosures work well
    Enclosures need to be stiff but not necessarily dense
    this with class D amps a gives huge weight saving ....
    (I have that kind of rig as do many here )

    Bass players seem more into this stuff (the future)
    Guitarists seem to want "vintage" more

  11. #60

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    I was talking dimensions mostly, it gets hard to get a balanced tone the smaller the enclosure and the speaker get. But 8" ported enclosures are getting better and better. I even like the zt lunchbox one with the 6.5" speaker. There seem to be plenty of giggable mini heads around these days, but it's still difficult to find and try speakers lighter than say 10 kilos. I need to try the Dv Mark 12 one..

  12. #61

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    What about taking it one step further and plugging right into the PA? What is the current state of electric guitar straight to mixing board?

    This looks interesting:

    Phantom Block Quilter Labs

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I was talking dimensions mostly, it gets hard to get a balanced tone the smaller the enclosure and the speaker get. But 8" ported enclosures are getting better and better. I even like the zt lunchbox one with the 6.5" speaker. There seem to be plenty of giggable mini heads around these days, but it's still difficult to find and try speakers lighter than say 10 kilos. I need to try the Dv Mark 12 one..
    yeah counterintuitively some of the new 6.5" drivers are viable for us now
    ZT
    Toob Metro
    Hennriksen bud and Blu

    good news and all well under 10 Kg

  14. #63

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    Plugging straight to a pa is my least preferred solution, and not for the sound but for the lack of convenience. You're always at the mercy of the soundman and the pa/monitor equipment available. Except if working with the same people/band/venue, I'd much rather carry an amp.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by entresz
    That leads me to what I love about a nice tube amp, even when playing clean there's often a hint of sag or compression that smooths out some of the peaks.
    Yes, I love that too; it's very stimulating, perhaps because it flatters one's playing a bit. Like the softer lights in women's washrooms!

    I've only just about enough experience to know the differences between both types, but perhaps that's a + from a first perspective:

    The amps they showed me when I was shopping not long ago were all transistor or hybrid models, many with digital modelling stuff. All sounded good, but then there was a Fender student bass amp from the mid-1970s; only 1 sound, but with that sag to it that's so pleasing that I forgot about the technically much better amps. It's broken now, but I already know I want that same "brake" on the attack from whatever's next. To my ear it's akin to the difference between an electric bass's "BOOONG" and an upright's "BWooNG" on the slow, low notes.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Plugging straight to a pa is my least preferred solution, and not for the sound but for the lack of convenience. You're always at the mercy of the soundman and the pa/monitor equipment available. Except if working with the same people/band/venue, I'd much rather carry an amp.
    This, X 1,000. You spend years of your life and thousands of money units perfecting your tone, only to have a stranger shape your tone into his/her idea of good, appropriate tone is.

    No thanks.

    OTOH, a good soundman is worth his/her weight in gold!

  17. #66

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    Yep, and although I suppose they'll give professionals time for a soundcheck, imagine it's badly done, or completely contrary to your taste; you have to sit there and play against the grain. I don't know if I could.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    I really feel that it's about the whole package, including the guitar, strings, pick, amp electronics, cabinet (esp. open back vs. closed), speaker and positioning. I have the "prototype" v1 (no serial number) Henriksen/Sound Island "Alfresco" with the older Gen 1 electronics (but which includes a nifty phase reversal switch) and mediocre reverb, and a Weber "Black Shuck" speaker. The package of 12" open back with that speaker works really well with guitars that are not too dark sounding (and is more forgiving re: positioning with guitars that are not very deep). I don't think it tries to be tube-y at all and yet it kind of succeeds in doing so i.e. gets some nice mild overdrive when pushed, and by this point there have been quite a few newer and probably better electronics that have come out. I've gone through a lot of amps, including some tube amps, and for me this now somewhat-dated v1 Alfresco just works well enough all things considered. A bit heavy but being compact and SS transportation is not too bad.

    I do think that some of the unique sound we associate with tube amps come from the fact that they are usually open-back rather than closed back like most SS amps. I like how the Henriksen Blu (and perhaps the new Ten?) have a tweeter; that extra little bit of dispersion helps them sound a bit more like open back amps IMO.
    Nothing wrong with earlier Henrikens IMO. BTW, the Alfresco isn't exactly Gen 1, as there were earlier 60 watt models before the 100 watt then 120 watt models IIRC. I have an older Henriksen 110ER (with tweeter). At 25 pounds, it was considered a very light gig worthy amp just a few years ago !!! And it still is. I bet if you do an A B test between one of the older Henriksen amps and their newest offering, you would find they sound more similar than different. I mean, they are building on success after all.

  19. #68

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    I agree that there is a subtle elastic quality to tube amps. Attack is a little compressed yet the dynamics are still strong. Oddly they are punchy and compressed at the same time. Compression comes first, punch comes after. Dynamics are less linear than SS amps too. Different frequencies are emphasized as the sound reaches the higher volume end of the dynamics. These are subtle in low volume, clean playing but still there.

    However many of the high end "Jazz amps" aren't necessarily going for that feel. OP does not make a distinction between "non-tube" technologies that try to emulate the tube feel and tone vs those that aim good sound with guitar without being tube-like.

    It seems like both types of "non-tube" technologies have reached a level that can satisfy even the snobbiest of the guitarist if they are willing to pay attention. But at the tube amp prices. So it's really a matter of whether you like to push a dolly or carry 15lbs.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 02-20-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    One 8" speaker is going to sound different from two 12" speakers regardless of the amp driving them. I have a Vibrolux Reverb from ~1980 or so, with two 10" speakers. I've played the same guitar through it, through an AI Clarus/RE Stealth 10, and the Clarus through the speakers of the VR. They all sound different. Better is entirely subjective, and my preferences aren't anyone else's, but my least favorite of these is the VR. The Clarus sounds better to me through the VR cabinet than the VR amp. The cabinet certainly makes a difference, but so does the amp, and everyone is free to vote with their pocketbook.
    But if you use two separate FRFR cabinets with a single 8" speaker in each, it's a different kettle of fish. When I want an open cab sound, I've found that a fill speaker in addition to a primary makes quite a difference which is interesting.

  21. #70

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    Horses for courses, they say.
    I play everything from ZT Lunchbox to vintage tube amps to modern Marshall stacks, depending on the job.

    For gigs I can use roadies and stage crew, I usually have’em bring and set up my Mesa Mark I RI combo.
    Otherwise, I usually get my choice of back line; AC 15/30.

    For smaller, fun gigs, I may bring a 5E3, but most of the time just a simple SS amp will do; I have a garrison of ss amps from Vox Pathfinder 15R to Quilters to Gibson G-20 to all kinds of odd Fenders, and etc.
    Love my Clark 5E3, but it may not work as well as a Gibson G-20 for some jobs/rooms, and vice versa.

    I like’em all. They all work for what it is they are called for.
    Most of amps will get the job done with something close to “your” sound, if you know what you’re doing.

    I’m a pro who plays 99% jazz from major concert halls to jazz clubs in cities around the world, and I don’t usually want to haul my vintage Ampegs to gigs, though those are my favorite.
    So they stay in my home most of the times.

    One time, I played through a no-name, $10 “bass” practice amp with 8” speaker at a club in Seoul, Korea and it worked fine.

    And what the heck is the point of all this?
    It don’t stop me from gawking around and trying different amps wherever/whenever I can, because it’s just so much fun.
    And 15+ amps ain’t never ‘nuff.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I was talking dimensions mostly, it gets hard to get a balanced tone the smaller the enclosure and the speaker get. But 8" ported enclosures are getting better and better. I even like the zt lunchbox one with the 6.5" speaker. There seem to be plenty of giggable mini heads around these days, but it's still difficult to find and try speakers lighter than say 10 kilos. I need to try the Dv Mark 12 one..
    Your post intrigued me to research high quality 8" guitar speaker cabs. This 2x8 Quilter is rated at 200 watts and looks very promising.


  23. #72

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    That quilter is cool.

    I'm a big fan of 8" speaker cabs, especially for playing with a group.

  24. #73

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    The Raezer's Edge Twin 8 seems to do a good job. I don't have one, but what I've heard online is excellent, as is the New York 8.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    The Raezer's Edge Twin 8 seems to do a good job. I don't have one, but what I've heard online is excellent, as is the New York 8.
    Had one of the earliest ones made by Rich back in the day.
    It is a sound, but I eventually got rid of it after several years of gigging because;
    a. It was (relatively) heavy (around 30lbs, I think)
    b. Treble was tuned too low
    c. Can be boxy sounding depending on amp (slim pickings on good, light-weight guitar heads back then. Heck, I paired it up with a David Eden Traveler head for a while)
    d.Those 8” eminence drivers in small ported box couldn’t handle good 100 tube watts without adding too much compression on their own.

    Things came a long way since then, and there are more options now.
    I wonder if Geoff F. of Raezer’s Edge would offer a 2x8 w/ neo drivers plus tweeter (ER version)....?

    Come to think of it, maybe something like a Quilter or some new ss heads would sound pretty good with the Twin 8.
    Hmmm.......

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Just upgrade the speaker and the Princeton does fine as a gigging amp. It becomes Deluxe Reverb territory volume wise.
    Here's three videos playing with different bands using the princeton. Didn't use monitors, no sound system on the first one either.


    Alter, have you experimented with different preamp tubes for max headroom. Do you find that there is noticeably more headroom with 12AY7's than 12AX7's.