The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Gosh. I like both tube and SS. I play out regularly in bars, wine tasting establishments, auditoriums, etc. I can get superb jazz tones from either a 100 watt SS combo, or from any of several tube amps.

    Can't beat a Twin Reverb for an L5 style archtop.

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  3. #27

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    Sorry to disagree with above statement. Love a great Fender amp Twin,etc. But I have yet to find a better usable Clean Tone than my Quilters of 100 and 200 watts through good speakers.
    Last edited by jads57; 02-18-2020 at 12:45 PM.

  4. #28

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    IMO 90% of an amps tone is the cab and the speaker. But the remaining 10% is still noticeable if you spend some time with the amp.

  5. #29

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    The irony of all this talk comparing high end tube vs. current SS amps is that most audiences cannot tell the difference, and often, the band can't either.

    I still love my tube amps, but have come to an age when most of them are simply too heavy to schlep around. That's why I keep a Cube 80GX in the trunk of my car...and the tube amps in the music room/man cave.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by vernon
    However, I recently did a trade for an unmolested authentic 1964 Fender Princeton non-reverb amp that I’ve been playing for a week now. To play a Tele through this amp is quite an experience... but the 175 as well. The sensitivity of response to touch from this old tube is a whole new experience. Yes, I’m in love, I admit that. But there’s something special about this amp... it brings you into a more intimate kind of relationship of guitar, player, and amp that I just haven’t experienced with SS amps. When I play Jim Soloway’s 15” single Gosling through the Princeton there is such wonderful warmth to the tone along with an almost crystalline top end shimmer. It’s wild. But again, it may just be infatuation. Am I crazy?
    These are my experiences even with the modern run-of-the-mill Princeton Reissue's.

  7. #31

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    I gotta say... I have a Tone Master Twin, and a Quilter TB202, but they have not made me love may Princeton Reverb ReIssue with the 12" CR speaker any less. I love that amp passionately. The others are great, just as good, but the Princeton tone quality has something I have not yet been able to describe. I can imagine someone loving it or hating it, but not being neutral about it.

  8. #32

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    So when actually gigging in a Real World situation, a Princeton reverb just doesn't cut it. Studio situation I'll give is different and maybe a more fair comparison.
    If you had monitors and a great soundman or even perhaps the New Waza Tube Expander and another cab.

    But at that point you're not a Jazz musician gigging are you? So were back to real situation where you need to haul gear that actually covers the gig in a satisfactory way for both you and the audience.
    I'm also aware of the elusive tube compression feel especially in well designed small tube amps. But again it all becomes tradeoffs to actually work.

    If your a home enthusiast than none of this probably applies to your situation.

  9. #33

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    I think Christian77 here uses a Princeton as his main gigging amp. When I had a Princeton briefly in the past, I gigged with it a few times with a concert band (horns and everything), rooms weren't very big and I had no issues being heard.
    It will probably require micing in crowded, mid size venues. It may not stay clean with a loud rock drummer with stock speakers. But for a lot of other circumstances it might just be loud enough IMO.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    The irony of all this talk comparing high end tube vs. current SS amps is that most audiences cannot tell the difference, and often, the band can't either.
    Maybe, but I think audiences, especially listening jazz audiences, whether they know anything about the types of amplification employed or not, do hear quality and tone of sound. If I didn't hear the difference that would be one thing, but I personally do hear the difference, and based on what I hear and wanting my sound to be as good as possible for the audience, I use big tube amps even performing very quietly in a venue, because I guess I kind of feel that I have to offer the audience my best in order to play my best...

    It very well may be that nobody else discriminates a specific individual difference from how I use big tube amps, or tune my guitar in a special way, or polish my pick edges, or clean my strings, or shine the guitar (or other behind the scene things). I do these things for my own benefit and in faith, really, that their cumulative effect translates through the sound of my playing something that is heard to the benefit of my audience.

  11. #35

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    Good Luck being heard or even hearing yourself unless your doing a duo low volume gig!

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Good Luck being heard or even hearing yourself unless your doing a duo low volume gig!
    That certainly wasn't my experience. Looks like Pauln has a different experience with them as well (quote from a post above):

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln

    When using my big hollow-body jazz box, all the amps sound great at "jazz volume", but on a crowded stage under louder circumstances the Princeton is the one I typically choose - its single smaller speaker moves less air and does not feed back - sometimes the Deluxe will work in that situation. For quieter performances (majority of mine), I match the amp to the venue (size, acoustics) for clean clarity... about half the time I take a Twin Reverb.
    Princeton non-reverbs are a different story. They are very quiet. When you crank them they get to the loudness of PR at around 4.

  13. #37

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    Just upgrade the speaker and the Princeton does fine as a gigging amp. It becomes Deluxe Reverb territory volume wise.
    Here's three videos playing with different bands using the princeton. Didn't use monitors, no sound system on the first one either.



  14. #38

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    Well in fairness I'm old and DEAF from professionally gigging for over 45 years,LOL!

  15. #39

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    Well in fairness I'm old and DEAF from professionally gigging for over 45 years,LOL! And you kids play Rock so quietly!!!!

  16. #40

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    I hear ya bro! Sorta... :)

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Just upgrade the speaker and the Princeton does fine as a gigging amp. It becomes Deluxe Reverb territory volume wise.
    Here's three videos playing with different bands using the princeton. Didn't use monitors, no sound system on the first one either.


    DAMNED GOOD STUFF, ALTER!!

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Well in fairness I'm old and DEAF from professionally gigging for over 45 years,LOL!
    Whether I agreed with you or not, you have so much street cred that if my PRRI seemed loud enough on a gig, I'd assume my amp had been modded without my knowing it.

  19. #43

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    FTR, I like ss amps, I have 3 polyones, 2 fenders, etc.


    If you take your little SS amp, and set it next to a good BFSR, the difference is not subtle. There is a reason TW, SR, and the like have been the kings for decades.


    Now, of course I said you set the little one next to the fender, because nobody in their right mind wants to move an old Super...


    There are good reasons for both.


    (ps, I have never found a modeling amp I could enjoy like a tube or SS amp. The feel is different)

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    FTR, I like ss amps, I have 3 polyones, 2 fenders, etc.


    If you take your little SS amp, and set it next to a good BFSR, the difference is not subtle. There is a reason TW, SR, and the like have been the kings for decades.


    Now, of course I said you set the little one next to the fender, because nobody in their right mind wants to move an old Super...


    There are good reasons for both.


    (ps, I have never found a modeling amp I could enjoy like a tube or SS amp. The feel is different)
    Big part of the difference would be the speaker and cab though not the amps. If you put the SS amp through the cab of SR (if the impedance is a reasonable match), I bet the difference would be subtle especially in lower volumes.

  21. #45

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    One 8" speaker is going to sound different from two 12" speakers regardless of the amp driving them. I have a Vibrolux Reverb from ~1980 or so, with two 10" speakers. I've played the same guitar through it, through an AI Clarus/RE Stealth 10, and the Clarus through the speakers of the VR. They all sound different. Better is entirely subjective, and my preferences aren't anyone else's, but my least favorite of these is the VR. The Clarus sounds better to me through the VR cabinet than the VR amp. The cabinet certainly makes a difference, but so does the amp, and everyone is free to vote with their pocketbook.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Good Luck being heard or even hearing yourself unless your doing a duo low volume gig!
    This is something of a recurring theme around here, with some insisting that a PR is not loud enough for real gigs, and others insisting that it is. All I know is that mine is loud enough for the duo jazz gigs (it fills a good size restaurant on 2), blues gigs with a 5-piece bands (on 4-5), and jazz jam sessions with various sized groups (including drums, keys, and multiple horns, on 3-4), in a few different rooms/venues that I do. No doubt, there are situations it's not loud enough for, but it's pretty friggin' loud. There's variability in how much power and clean headroom specific amps have, so I also have no doubt that some PR's would turn out not to be loud enough even for my uses. Mine is a '78, unmodified except that it has a Jensen C10Q in place of the original (I don't know what that was, it came to me with the C10Q); a tech who serviced it for me told me that he measured it at 16 watts. It's probably at the loud end of the spectrum for PR's. A friend of mine's stock '65 PRRI seems less loud (though we haven't put this to a rigorous test). So I think the real answer to how loud a PR is is "depends on the PR".

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 02-19-2020 at 04:37 PM.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    One 8" speaker is going to sound different from two 12" speakers regardless of the amp driving them. I have a Vibrolux Reverb from ~1980 or so, with two 10" speakers. I've played the same guitar through it, through an AI Clarus/RE Stealth 10, and the Clarus through the speakers of the VR. They all sound different. Better is entirely subjective, and my preferences aren't anyone else's, but my least favorite of these is the VR. The Clarus sounds better to me through the VR cabinet than the VR amp. The cabinet certainly makes a difference, but so does the amp, and everyone is free to vote with their pocketbook.
    Multiple speakers directly produce spatially complicated constructive and destructive interference patterns which tend to spread and smooth the various acoustic anomalies of natural reflection, refraction, and diffusion within the surrounding space, while imposing a little comb filtering. This tends to sound balanced, complex, with a little chime, more pretty and blending than aggressive. Single speakers directly produce a purer, more punchy tone that is much easier to mic for a consistent tone.

    In the studio, both single and multiple speakers have been popular for both chord and solo playing roles; on most stages the guitarists just do the best with whatever they brought or find provided.

  24. #48

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    So I have heard Princeton's modded with bigger or more efficient speakers. And also upgraded tubes,etc. Absolutely makes a huge difference!
    But compared to a Quilter Aviator 1x8 combo there's no comparison to which is capable of loud gig volumes.

    And again I agree speakers and cab choice make huge differences in both SS and tube amps as well. The 5 to 10 % elusive tube thing is real as well!
    But again on the gig I always defer not only to having enough Clean headroom. But at the end of the night when I'm tired not being a furniture mover,LOL!

  25. #49

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    Tubes or no tubes? SS or no SS? How about instead, "sounds good" or "doesn't sound good".... it doesn't matter WHAT is creating the tone, so long as it's a good tone. And it has been shown, over many years, ad infinitum, that there is no "better" at producing tone... especially the jazz tones most of you use. Hell, Johnny Smith was using a SS amp (Emrad) 50 years go...

  26. #50

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    One of the big differences the above post points it really is the player to a great extent. Another fact to consider is SS tend to have a more immediate pick attack which can be important when discussing differences.
    But I agree there does come a point that gear is only so important, and really talent is the key!