The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi all, I don’t think I have posted before here. Been playing mostly acoustic fingerstyle, last couple years got interested in jazz. Have a tele and a strat. Got this idea to try a hollowbody, something 175’ish maybe.... but where I live there isn’t really a good selection of such guitars. Can you help explain what to expect?

    Most shops here have one or two cheap ibanez or epiphones. These feel really heavy and clunky to me, covered in thick, sticky lacquer. When I pick one of those up, they sound dead and I don’t even want to plug them in, just to put them back asap.

    One shop has two lgb300, but these are heavy too, and the neck wasn’t my thing, so they went back on the wall pronto.

    My guitar teacher has an antique US made epiphone that’s completely different, not too heavy with a thin layer of nitro, very lively, he uses it often purely acoustically. Also he has a Japanese d’Angelico that’s more an electric guitar, but still feels elegant to hold. But both of these are “vintage“ and no way I can buy something that expensive.

    As an experiment I bought a Japanese gb10. It had that feeling of the d’Angelico and one of the best necks I ever tried. But it’s heavy and the floaters have a sound that I can approximate 90% with my tele. And it was heavy. So I got rid of it.

    So you see the problem. What kind of hollow body might work for me given these experiences? Is there a lightweight guitar with humbucker pickup(s) that costs say 2k euros or less?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    There are broadly two categories. Acoustic emphasized and electric emphasized designs (for the lack of a better term). They both are meant to be electric amplified. Acoustic group are lighter and either have carved tops or thin laminates. They typically have floaters or only mounted neck pickup. Examples are Dale Unger American Archtop or Eastmans. Sounds like your teachers guitar is in that group.

    Electric emphasized ones are heavier with thicker tops and braces. They can still be carved like modern Gibson L5's, Byrdlands or L4's but they are mostly laminates. This is the group that you might find heavy and clunky if you are mostly paying attention to the acoustic tone. Although I'm a bit confused about you finding them heavy if you are a Strat or Tele player. They generally are not heavier (in fact lighter) than most solid bodies. May be you're comparing with acoustic guitars.

    There are of course also purely acoustic ones (most of them vintage), but I'm under the impression that you're asking about electric archtops.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 01-20-2020 at 06:32 PM.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    .....What kind of hollow body might work for me given these experiences? Is there a lightweight guitar with humbucker pickup(s) that costs say 2k euros or less?
    Eastman AR503CE : light ? check !, humbucker ? check !, less than 2k€ ? check !
    On top of that, it has a nice acoustic sound
    If you find the pick-up too bright for your taste, you saved plenty money so you can arrange for a swap
    You can also experiment with strings (Brand, gauge, Roundwound/Flatwound, alloy ...) before spending €€€ on pick-up
    BUT :
    Be sure the neck will suit you (nut width is 1.75")
    No a problem for me, but this neck ain't Fender-like.
    Mine :
    Are jazz guitars all heavy and clunky?-dsc_0017-jpg

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Electric emphasized ones are heavier with thicker tops and braces. They can still be carved like modern Gibson L5's, Byrdlands or L4's but they are mostly laminates. This is the group that you might find heavy and clunky if you are mostly paying attention to the acoustic tone. Although I'm a bit confused with you finding them heavy if you are a Strat or Tele player. They generally are not heavier (in fact lighter) than solid bodies. May be you're comparing with acoustic guitars.
    @Tal good question. My strat is around 3.5kg, my tele is a thinline so it's lighter. Thing is, the laminate archtops I get to try here are cheap and to me, they feel substantially heavier (although this could be aggravated by the cheap feeling and crappy necks). The lgb300 was definitely heavier than the strats in the shop. And the gb10 I had at home felt heavy too (but not clunky). So is it the laminate construction that makes a guitar heavy? In other words, if I got to try a real Gibson 175, would that be heavy too? Or is it that cheap Korean/Chinese guitars, and George Benson models are heavy?

    Or put it like this. There is an Ibanez fg100, a Guild ce100 and an Aria Pro II PE-180 for sale far enough from that it would mean a substantial road trip to try them, or have them shipped. Also, there are guitars on Reverb such as Gibson 165 Herb Ellis, Ibanez PM100 etc. They are overpriced (but that's maybe a different thread). Will they be as heavy and clunky as those cheap Ibanezes/Epis/Bensons? Or did I just have bad luck with the guitars available locally?

    @339 thanks for the Eastman tip. The lgb300 had a 1.75 nut too and I wasn't a fan... too bad that most Eastmans seem to be built like that. For some reason I prefer thinner necks on electrics, while my favourite acoustic is a Lowden S25C with a Gibson scale and 1.75" nut.

  6. #5

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    ES 175's vary in weight. Mine is a 2013 model that weights around 7 pounds. Most modern ones are a bit heavier. My American Strat weights 8 pounds.

    If acoustic liveliness is important to you, you won't like the modern ES 175's except for the 59 reissue model. The guitars in your list are mostly based on ES 175 or L5. It's hard to know if they will fall into the "clunky" category or not.

  7. #6

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    I've played a ton of archtops in all categories of price, and I don't remember "crappy necks" on any of them. If you are used to slinky strings on a skinny neck, I guess the traditional size of an archtop neck, which is somewhere between a solid body and flat-top acoustic neck, will seem larger, but they are not "crappy" to my knowledge. Maybe you just have horrible shops?

    "Different' is not the same as "crappy." Maybe you need to realize you will not find an archtop that plays like a Strat or a Tele. Different beasts for different feasts.

  8. #7
    @Tal very good question - I don't think I'm looking for another acoustic guitar at all (but as you can see, I have very little experience with these kind of guitars). It's just notable that the vintage Epiphone my teacher owns happens to have a very useable acoustic voice, while sounding absolutely fabulous plugged in. His d'Angelico doesn't have those acoustic properties, but the neck and overall feel of the guitar is classy, it's not heavier than a strat, and it sounds great plugged in. I guess I'm fantasizing that it's possible to buy a guitar like those for 2k euros or less, but maybe this is the problem.

    @lawson-stone my strat is a 56 CS reissue and the neck is definitely not slinky... and neither are my two acoustics. My tele however is... but I have played enough guitars in my lifetime to know a crappy neck from a good one, and this has little to do with the specs. As you say, the shops here are horrible, there is practically no selection of good jazz boxes to try.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    @Tal very good question - I don't think I'm looking for another acoustic guitar at all (but as you can see, I have very little experience with these kind of guitars). It's just notable that the vintage Epiphone my teacher owns happens to have a very useable acoustic voice, while sounding absolutely fabulous plugged in. His d'Angelico doesn't have those acoustic properties, but the neck and overall feel of the guitar is classy, it's not heavier than a strat, and it sounds great plugged in. I guess I'm fantasizing that it's possible to buy a guitar like those for 2k euros or less, but maybe this is the problem.

    @lawson-stone my strat is a 56 CS reissue and the neck is definitely not slinky... and neither are my two acoustics. My tele however is... but I have played enough guitars in my lifetime to know a crappy neck from a good one, and this has little to do with the specs. As you say, the shops here are horrible, there is practically no selection of good jazz boxes to try.
    Sorry about that! I wish you could try nice examples. The Epiphone ES175 Premium is very inexpensive, but has a fast neck and is rather light, more like the old ES175's and the VOS1959 Gibson ES175. The finish is low-gloss, not shiny. I love mine, and I have 3 Gibson ES175's and one ES165 to compare. The newer ES175s are about .5 kg heavier and you will notice it. I like it, but I understand if someone else doesn't. A Gibson L5 WesMo, with one pickup, might also be a good one to try, though they're expensive.

    I hope you find what you're looking for. As you know, the right guitar brings so much pleasure!

  10. #9

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    Try a Godin archtop if you get
    a chance

    they’re light and good

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by 339 in june
    Eastman AR503CE : light ? check !, humbucker ? check !, less than 2k€ ? check !
    On top of that, it has a nice acoustic sound
    If you find the pick-up too bright for your taste, you saved plenty money so you can arrange for a swap
    You can also experiment with strings (Brand, gauge, Roundwound/Flatwound, alloy ...) before spending €€€ on pick-up
    BUT :
    Be sure the neck will suit you (nut width is 1.75")
    No a problem for me, but this neck ain't Fender-like.
    Mine :
    Are jazz guitars all heavy and clunky?-dsc_0017-jpg
    +1 on Eastman. They seem to check all the boxes that you outlined in your post. I’d recommend one of the 16” carved models.

  12. #11

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    +1 on Godin. Light and comfortable.

  13. #12

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    +1 on the 59 reissue 175. Mine weighs less than 3KG

  14. #13

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    Mine are, but only because I store recycling in them....

    On a serious note. My Eastman ar371 is very light. Good acoustic and electric sound. Nothing mind blowing though...

  15. #14

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    The Epiphone ES-175 Premium mentioned by Lawson is a great guitar option, certainly worth checking out.

  16. #15

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    yes

    stick with the tele like ed bickert did




    cheers

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Try a Godin archtop if you get
    a chance

    they’re light and good
    Yep, my Kingpin is under 6 pounds. Great guitar, nice thin finish, "old" sound.

    The carved Eastmans are lightly built too, but if you want an old school Gibson like sound, look elsewhere.

    The Epi Premium 175 I tried wasn't heavy, I'd say about 7 lbs, well balanced, about the closest thing new to a real 175, and no thick goopy finish either.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    +1 on the 59 reissue 175. Mine weighs less than 3KG
    Agreed. I love my ‘59 RI VOS.

  19. #18
    Thanks all for chipping in! There is no Epiphone Premium anywhere in this country, nor any real Gibson 175 et the moment. So it seems I need to make a road trip to someplace where I can try Eastman and Godin.

    It's ridiculous really because I live in a major city with lots of shops. But there is a boutique relic trend going on at the moment, that seems to occupy all resources. There are hand reliced guitars by local builders everywhere, but no jazz boxes.

  20. #19

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    I've been following this thread with interest. I have on-and-off shoulder pain that I deal with through regular exercise, stretching, and checking my posture. But as I age I'd like to have an electric hollowbody that's legitimately lightweight as an option as well. I've been reading threads here lately for ideas.

    What about thinlines, such as the Godin Montreal Premiere or Ibanez AF200? Could either be classified as light?

    I live in an apartment with neighbors all around me. I'd like to have some acoustic presence, but it's not important to me to have a guitar that's loud unamplified. I just need something I can hear and enjoy well enough acoustically. I plug into an amp with headphones when I want to hear myself louder, or with backing tracks.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankhond
    ...There is no ... anywhere in this country, nor any .... So it seems I need to make a road trip to someplace where I can try ....
    It's ridiculous really because I live in a major city with lots of shops. ....
    In what city/country are you located?

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    In what city/country are you located?
    I’m in Stockholm, Sweden.

    As luck would have it, I went to a shop that used to carry lots of Eastman, but they don’t anymore. But they had one left, a used AR805. It was light and was more like an acoustic. So it is possible to make a light jazz guitar after all!

    An interesting observation was that on paper the neck was 1 3/4 but I would estimate it to more like 1 11/16, which was nice. Maybe the specs aren’t set in stone.


    I’ll look for an Eastman 372CE, could be just the ticket!

  23. #22

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    Sorry for the slight derail...just trying to help telejw 's shoulder.

    Quote Originally Posted by telejw
    I've been following this thread with interest. I have on-and-off shoulder pain that I deal with through regular exercise, stretching, and checking my posture. But as I age I'd like to have an electric hollowbody that's legitimately lightweight as an option as well.
    .
    You might like to consider an Epiphone Casino COUPE. Small 339 sized body, fully hollow, weighs in at about 6 pounds and is not too expensive. I have had one for several years and enjoy it very much.
    This is not me...how I wish I had these skills!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greco
    Sorry for the slight derail...just trying to help telejw 's shoulder.


    You might like to consider an Epiphone Casino COUPE. Small 339 sized body, fully hollow, weighs in at about 6 pounds and is not too expensive. I have had one for several years and enjoy it very much.
    This is not me...how I wish I had these skills!
    You sound very good. Those 339's (Gibson or Epiphone) are very luring. I like their practical design. Accessible high frets, light weight, hollow body sound in a small size body.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You sound very good.
    You missed reading in the post that it is not me.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greco
    Sorry for the slight derail...just trying to help telejw 's shoulder.


    You might like to consider an Epiphone Casino COUPE. Small 339 sized body, fully hollow, weighs in at about 6 pounds and is not too expensive. I have had one for several years and enjoy it very much.
    This is not me...how I wish I had these skills!
    I had one exactly like the one in the video. Really a great guitar as a starter jazz thin box. I graduated up to an ES-390 which is virtually the same guitar built to professional standards. It is an aspiration for me.