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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    Seller says it is a 1972, probably European made version, says it is nitro finish (not something used by Asian manufacturers?) and pickups are schaller (could've been changed out though). Any thoughts?
    Attachment 57622
    Attachment 57623
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    It wasn't my intention to open a can of worms: the story of Hoyer guitars and its luthiers is quite complex; I do not know anyone who could describe the story coherently in detail.
    The present owners of the brand name are located in New York. Their given history of the company (Hoyer Guitars | Bringing the past to the future ) is helpful, but does omit essential parts.


    Trying to make a long story short: In terms of great archtop guitars we're talking about

    - Arnold Hoyer in the period between 1945 and his death in 1967. He was responsible for remarkable designs like the Hoyer Special SL, Bianka or Fantastic.

    - his son Walter A. Hoyer who had to leave the company in 1977. Some notable luthiers stayed at the company in Tennenlohe, so we can say that between the late 1960's and the mid 1980's they also made great guitars, among them the newer Specials (3064) and Biankas, and "copies" of the Gibson ES-175 (like the model 3060), Howard Roberts (3061), Barney Kessel (3062) and L-5. Somewhere in the depths of this forum my pic of the flagship model 3065 'Meister Lang' can be found.
    In the 1980's Walter A. Hoyer established his own company "Original Walter A. Hoyer Guitars". Some seem to know that either the old persisting Hoyer Company or Walter A. Hoyer's new plant have contributed to Gibson's dark period production between the late 1970's and 1985 (and it's odd that, until today, Gibson has kept silent about the real origin of the relatively few L-5s made in that era). In Germany, Walter A. Hoyer offered fully carved archtops very similar to the L5s, for example under the name "WAH.060".

    The old Hoyer Company in Tennenlohe closed its doors in 1987, but three years later a German acquisition group purchased the company and started a production line in Asia under the brand name Hoyer. I'm not knowledgeable about the later Hoyer guitars, but the 175 copy pictured above could be one of these post 1990 Hoyer guitars. In my eyes (and probably ears too) hardly the real thing … but I could be wrong - who can be sure? The best way to judge would be to play the guitar while keeping one's ears wide open, and forgetting the label.

    The situation gets complicated by the fact that even after 1987 some top models were assembled by independant luthiers using up left-over original Hoyer guitar parts, bodies, necks. In the same weird way, the Hoyer Company, under the short direction of Michael Compernass between 2005 and 2009, made archtops that resembled either older Hoyer or former Roger guitars or even a mix of both.

    German guitar history is crazy complicated, as has always been the history of this country.


    Btw., most of the 175 (or Barney Kessel, etc.) "copies" made when Walter A. Hoyer (Walter Hoyer | Oral Histories | NAMM.org ) was a the helm of the company, weren't simple replicas of the originals; most of them were upgraded in some way, or improved, and show, for example, carved tops, etc.. As was recently mentioned: Good artists copy, great artists steal.

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Most of them ship with the 490R pickup, however, instead of the 57 Classic. I happen to like my ES165 with the 490R, but with 3 ES175s to play, I enjoy the difference. And there is a difference, to be sure. I like it, but a lot of people might not care for the 490R. Put a 57 Classic in there, though, and sure, the 165 would nail it.
    Lawson,

    I submit that the difference you hear in your 165 vs. your 175's is more due to the 1 PUP vs. 2 PUPs variation than the difference between the Classic 57 and the 490R. I have swapped a 57 classic and a 490R in the same guitar and could not tell the difference. I do think there is an audible difference between the 1 PUP model and the 2 PUP model. The 2 PUP model, to my ears is darker.

  4. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Lawson,

    I submit that the difference you hear in your 165 vs. your 175's is more due to the 1 PUP vs. 2 PUPs variation than the difference between the Classic 57 and the 490R. I have swapped a 57 classic and a 490R in the same guitar and could not tell the difference. I do think there is an audible difference between the 1 PUP model and the 2 PUP model. The 2 PUP model, to my ears is darker.
    You have a very good point there. I've noticed both my ES165 and the Epiphone Zephyr Regent Reissue have a less dark, more "malleable" tone than the 2 pickup versions. That mounted bridge pickup, I guess because it's so close to the bridge, damps out a ton of vibration.

  5. #129

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    I have played a ton of one and two pickup ES-175s and ES-165s. I think you guys are correct. The dampening effect of two pickups on the 175 does the same thing that it does on the L5CES.

    Every single-pickup L5 I ever played was a bit brighter than the two-pickup version. Well, it works out that way with the 175.

    The effect is more dramatically apparent if the instrument is "thick topped." The ones with the thinner tops are inherently brighter. The heavy top 175s (and L5s, for that matter) all have a darker, more haunting sound.

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Lawson,

    I submit that the difference you hear in your 165 vs. your 175's is more due to the 1 PUP vs. 2 PUPs variation than the difference between the Classic 57 and the 490R. I have swapped a 57 classic and a 490R in the same guitar and could not tell the difference. I do think there is an audible difference between the 1 PUP model and the 2 PUP model. The 2 PUP model, to my ears is darker.
    That or height/pole-piece adjustment. The 490R and Classic 57 are virtually the same pickup (same winding wire, same magnet type, similar DC resistance (i.e., spec's list different ranges for the two, but they overlap). Most sources sources say the only differences is they have different baseplates and 490's come with four-conductor output wire instead of two so they can be wired to a coil split switch. I'd bet dollars to donuts that no one could pick up a Gibson at random and be able to identify whether it has 57's or 490s.

    John

  7. #131

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    I recently purchased a 72 Tradition MT750. Took a chance on the buy and based the decision to go forward with the purchase from reviews on the guitar. They only made them from 72 thru 74 and in small numbers per year. Big difference compared to other 175 style guitars is that the top is a solid carved spruce top instead of the laminated material as on most 175's. The build quality is excellent and the pick-ups were highly rated by the reviewers. I found it on Reverb and got it for $600. Absolutely no regrets. I was considering a Peerless Gigmaster or Seventy Seven model until I found this one. Hard to find but if you do, worth a serious look.

    Sorry I don't have a photo to post.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    The 2 PUP model, to my ears is darker.
    Just like the difference between an L5CES and a L5Wes!

  9. #133

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    I think the Archtop Tribute (Westville) guitars I've heard sound simply amazing! Their high-end "Azure" looks interesting except for the 42mm nut (1.65").



    od

    Here's the new "Grande" Model:
    Top Solid Carved Sitka Spruce Back : Figured hard Maple Plywood Sides : Solid Hard Maple Width : 17" (43
    m) Depth : 3 1/3" (85mm)

    Neck www.westvilleguitars.com Fretboard 3Piece Hard Maple & Walnut / Ebony Scale Length : 25 1/2" Width at Nut : 1 21/32" (42mm)
    Pickup USA Kent Armstrong PAF-O Alnico III / PAF-O Alnico V
    Bridge GOTOH AS103B on our original Ebony bridge base

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    That or height/pole-piece adjustment. The 490R and Classic 57 are virtually the same pickup (same winding wire, same magnet type, similar DC resistance (i.e., spec's list different ranges for the two, but they overlap). Most sources sources say the only differences is they have different baseplates and 490's come with four-conductor output wire instead of two so they can be wired to a coil split switch. I'd bet dollars to donuts that no one could pick up a Gibson at random and be able to identify whether it has 57's or 490s.

    John
    I can only say that swapping the 490R to Classic '57 in my 165 made a very noticeable difference giving a much mellower darker tone without having to roll off the treble so much. Even the other members of the band at the time remarked on the change in tone which surprised me since I thought that only guitar nerds would ever notice! I actually emailed Gibson customer support before making the change saying that I was surprised that they had put a different pickup in the 165 from that which they were putting in the 175. They actually recommended the '57 if I wanted a darker more typical 175 tone.

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneground
    I can only say that swapping the 490R to Classic '57 in my 165 made a very noticeable difference giving a much mellower darker tone without having to roll off the treble so much. Even the other members of the band at the time remarked on the change in tone which surprised me since I thought that only guitar nerds would ever notice! I actually emailed Gibson customer support before making the change saying that I was surprised that they had put a different pickup in the 165 from that which they were putting in the 175. They actually recommended the '57 if I wanted a darker more typical 175 tone.
    Curse you, empirical results undoing my baseless speculation ...

    Could be. There are tons of people saying they had the opposite experience (i.e., they found 57's brighter than 490's),as well as people saying they couldn't tell the difference. There are also different DC resistance values reported for both pickup types, so it's plausible that all of the conflicting reports are true due to variability in the pickups themselves. Absent well controlled tests of representative samples of the total pickup population, all the rest of us can do is shrug.

    John

  12. #136

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    Enjoying learning about everything here, appreciate the input very much.

    I've got it down to several different options. Probably going to stick with Japanese made.

    1. Ibanez FA100 (has some late 70s early 80s gibson T-tops)
    2. Westone session II (looks to be in just slightly better shape than the ibby and has some pretty nice maple)
    3. Aria pro Herb Ellis (love the way herb plays it, but not sure how similar to 175 it is or if it really matters)

    4. Ibanez 2355 (little spendier than the other three)


    Seems the Ibanez's and Aria would have better resale value, but the Westone seems to be in best shape)
    Though the Gibson pickups in the first are tempting.

    I would jump at one of the Seventy Seven or Archtop Tribute models (the King Snake's seem killer as well), but still a little out of my budget.

  13. #137

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    seventy seven and ibanez metheny models are also great.

  14. #138

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    Reagarding that Hoyer ES-175 copy:

    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    Seller says it is a 1972, probably European made version, says it is nitro finish (not something used by Asian manufacturers?) and pickups are schaller (could've been changed out though). Any thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    If it's a 1972 then it would definitely be german made. But I doubt that it's a 1972. Some details point to asian made (e.g.: toggle switch). Not an expert on Hoyer but I had a 1975 ES 335 style and at the time have seen some 175 styles - the cutaway on those was different than on the guitar pictured above....
    Everything about that guitar looks Korean to me - When Compernass revived the brand he had the laminated Hoyer-style boxes made for him at one of the Korean factories. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see much Teutonic content in it.

    He did have a handful of guitars made in Germany by one of the Sandners, using NOS Roger parts, NOS Hollenbach plates, and various other bits, along with some new tailpieces made for him by ABM. Two or three of those were very sexy, and the rest were just goofy-looking.
    No one was interested and they were sold off one-by-one on ebay and elsewhere.
    Last edited by Hammertone; 11-22-2018 at 09:00 PM.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Br.
    I recently purchased a 72 Tradition MT750. Took a chance on the buy and based the decision to go forward with the purchase from reviews on the guitar. They only made them from 72 thru 74 and in small numbers per year. Big difference compared to other 175 style guitars is that the top is a solid carved spruce top instead of the laminated material as on most 175's. The build quality is excellent and the pick-ups were highly rated by the reviewers. I found it on Reverb and got it for $600. Absolutely no regrets. I was considering a Peerless Gigmaster or Seventy Seven model until I found this one. Hard to find but if you do, worth a serious look.

    Sorry I don't have a photo to post.
    What's this make of guitar? I never heard of them before. What's up with them?

  16. #140

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    Lawson,

    I'd never heard of them either. I was looking for a 175 style guitar and did not want to pay the Gibson prices. Having had good experience with Peerless I was considering that when I saw the Tradition listed on Reverb.com. Looked them up to see what they were and the reviews were pretty good. It's a Korean outfit and back in 72 thru 74 they made about 300 units each year of the 750. I can't say anything about what they make now, but the 750 went for around $1200 back then and from what I can tell is an extreemly well made piece of kit.

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Br.
    Lawson,

    I'd never heard of them either. I was looking for a 175 style guitar and did not want to pay the Gibson prices. Having had good experience with Peerless I was considering that when I saw the Tradition listed on Reverb.com. Looked them up to see what they were and the reviews were pretty good. It's a Korean outfit and back in 72 thru 74 they made about 300 units each year of the 750. I can't say anything about what they make now, but the 750 went for around $1200 back then and from what I can tell is an extreemly well made piece of kit.
    Thanks for that info. There is a "Traditions Guitars" that was based in Texas, but I didn't think they were the same folks.

  18. #142

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    I was looking at the Ibanez hollow bodies. among them was the AKJV95 as well as the GBs and the Pat Metheny 200.

    It doesnt look like they make the JV95 anymore..?? nice axe... what do you think about the GB models???

    I would like to buy used. And I play more fusion than anything else at a moderate level.

    Do you see many used JV95s?

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    isn't that essentially the herb ellis model? I've owned a bunch of them and they are great guitars but don't sound like a 175.
    Yeah, it's hard to talk about one ES 175 sound. I was at the store to test an amp so I needed an ES 175 type guitar. Compared to other hollow bodies in the store (some Ibanez's and a Godin), that guitar sounded a lot like what I perceive as the ES 175 tone (or a Gibson archtop tone with slight generalization). Full, fat, dynamic sound with clear presence. Ibanez models sounded more compressed like a semi hollow.
    It's a good guitar but frets were a bit low.

  20. #144

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    You could also look into the Eastman AR371/372 guitars. They are essentially ES175 clones - with a single/double pickup configuration (respectively).

    I picked up a used 371SB this past spring, and love it.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  21. #145

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    If you want something close to the 175 sound, go for a 1970s Ibanez 2355 - a pure 175 copy. there a replenty of them around for between 1,000 and 1,500 USD. - Most will be fitted with Super 70 maxon pickups, but you may be lucky enough to get a later one with the excellent Super 58s which come very close to the genuine PAF sound (just slightly higher/hotter output). I speak from experience owning both a 1961 ES-175 with PAFs and a 1980 Ibanez AS200 with super 58s.

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Yeah, it's hard to talk about one ES 175 sound. I was at the store to test an amp so I needed an ES 175 type guitar. Compared to other hollow bodies in the store (some Ibanez's and a Godin), that guitar sounded a lot like what I perceive as the ES 175 tone (or a Gibson archtop tone with slight generalization). Full, fat, dynamic sound with clear presence. Ibanez models sounded more compressed like a semi hollow.
    It's a good guitar but frets were a bit low.
    I don't agree that it's hard to define the 175 tone. The 175 tone is very distinctive and there's a very common standard for it. The Eastman 371/372 do not sound like a 175 by the way.

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray175
    If you want something close to the 175 sound, go for a 1970s Ibanez 2355 - a pure 175 copy. there a replenty of them around for between 1,000 and 1,500 USD. - Most will be fitted with Super 70 maxon pickups, but you may be lucky enough to get a later one with the excellent Super 58s which come very close to the genuine PAF sound (just slightly higher/hotter output). I speak from experience owning both a 1961 ES-175 with PAFs and a 1980 Ibanez AS200 with super 58s.
    Those have maple necks and sound very bright compared to the '60s 175s.

  24. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I don't agree that it's hard to define the 175 tone. The 175 tone is very distinctive and there's a very common standard for it. The Eastman 371/372 do not sound like a 175 by the way.
    I do hear differences between ES 175's I played. Difference between 59 reissue's and modern ones are very clear to me for example. I played ES 175 copies that were less different in sound to modern ES 175's than 59 reissues are (the Aria above is one) . On the other hand I played old Harmonies that had were closer to 59 reissues than modern ES 175's get.

    Although I agree Eastman 371's do not sound like ES 175's modern or vintage. The Benedetto roots of Eastman's apply to the 371 and 372 models as well despite the cosmetics.

  25. #149

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    i agree the reissues are outliers and I wouldn't compare them to the classic tones but the guitars in the '60s and 70-72 and then '83 - mid '90s have what I consider the classic 175 tone. In my facebook group "modern jazz guitar" there are 7-10 guys who regularly post clips of their vintage 175s and they have a very identifiable and common tone. The benedettos don't sound like 175s and I agree that the eastmans have a benedetto vibe to them but if you're looking for a 175 clone, the 371/372 ain't it.

  26. #150

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    Jack,

    The Aria in the picture above is an early-70s Matsumoku effort. It pre-dates the Herb Ellis model by about five years. It is a different guitar. I've played both. I like both. IMO, neither is as "175" as the comparable period effort from Ibanez. All three, however, sound and play great.