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  1. #1

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    I'm pondering an archtop purchase..

    I recently made the acquaintance of a master luthier based in brazil. I am familiar with his double basses and they are of the highest grade, artist class handmade instruments. Everything done by hand, the old fashioned way, he selects woods himself each year, and so on. I trust that his skills are as good as anyones.

    I inquired about a guitar, he has made several and said a base price is $3500, depending on options could go up or down.

    if you were me: would you have a new guitar made, and take advantage of the currency conversion working in my favor, or invest roughly the same in a vintage instrument?

    as far as I can see it, the pros and cons lay out as such:
    vintage instrument will retain its value, but may come with maintenance issues as old guitars sometimes do. Vintage guitar can be heard/played before purchased.

    Modern instrument would be made to my specs, and created for me by someone whom I hold in very high regards. Tonal goals are likely to be met, though there are no guarantees until the instrument vibrates for the first time. This particular luthier's prices are low and I consider it an excellent value, though resale is unlikely to be all that great (not that I plan on selling)

    so, what would you do?

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  3. #2

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    Hey Grooove,
    [First, I'd caution your use of the term "invest," since buying a guitar is rarely a money-making, ROI. "Value" changes with the wind, too, so it's hard to know that a certain guitar today will bring you money tomorrow.]

    I guess another "con" in your scenario is that this is a great bass-maker building a guitar you've never played, so you're taking a major gamble, IMO (as opposed to buying a new guitar from an established guitar maker).

    Since your budget is $3500, there are many options from many builders -- new and used -- that could satisfy your instrument needs. I don't know you or your playing, if you're a beginner, intermediate, or pro, what instruments you already have, what specs you like, what you "need," etc. -- and these are all factors that would go into my recommendations and/or decision-making.

    If you think it would be fun to have this guy build you a guitar, and you can afford it, then go for it!

    Let us know what you decide, and send pics!

    Marc

  4. #3

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    Make sure you try one of his guitars first. Just because a Luthier is great at one type of instrument it doesn't always translate to others.
    I've played solid body guitars made by well known archtop makers that I didn't care for. And the other way around as well.

    Good luck in your quest !

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    Hey Grooove,
    [First, I'd caution your use of the term "invest," since buying a guitar is rarely a money-making, ROI. "Value" changes with the wind, too, so it's hard to know that a certain guitar today will bring you money tomorrow.]

    I guess another "con" in your scenario is that this is a great bass-maker building a guitar you've never played, so you're taking a major gamble, IMO (as opposed to buying a new guitar from an established guitar maker).

    Since your budget is $3500, there are many options from many builders -- new and used -- that could satisfy your instrument needs. I don't know you or your playing, if you're a beginner, intermediate, or pro, what instruments you already have, what specs you like, what you "need," etc. -- and these are all factors that would go into my recommendations and/or decision-making.

    If you think it would be fun to have this guy build you a guitar, and you can afford it, then go for it!

    Let us know what you decide, and send pics!

    Marc
    good points!

    I am a full time professional double bassist (hence knowing his basses.), and teach lots of guitar though I consider guitar to be a hobby to me. In short, this purchase is about loving well-made arched top guitars. I may use it for gigs here and there, but only as an accessory as I am really a bass player.

    Good point that each luthier may have their own set of skills. In this instance, I am fairly confident that his guitar would be up to snuff - he's made several already and he is by no means a "bass maker," he's made all sorts of different things over the years. I just happened to make his acquaintance via a bass that caught my eye.

    Also, i'm extremely aware that guitars should never be considered investments. But, the reality of what either is likely to be worth in 10 or 15 years i guess should not be totally irrelevant.

    I guess I'm leaning towards the modern instrument at this time, but a well made vintage guitar has it's perks as well. nice to mull over the ideas.

  6. #5

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    Thinking back about archtops I've played and many others I've heard, I can't say that I found boutique modern guitars better.

    The best sounding guitar I've played was a late 30's Gibson L5. I've played a number of original D'angelicos over the years, all of which sounded good, but I'd still pick the L5, if I had to pick.

    I've heard Borys, Benedetto and others. But they didn't strike me as any better than, oddly enough, a Fender from the D'Aquisto years, which sounded awesome thru a Twin in the hands of a good player.

    The only reason I'd do it is if there was something about the custom made guitar that I needed and couldn't get in an existing instrument.

  7. #6

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    ' I've heard Borys, Benedetto and others. But they didn't strike me as any better than, oddly enough, a Fender from the D'Aquisto years, which sounded awesome thru a Twin in the hands of a good player. '



    IMHO the individual perception of sound is VERY different for the player and the listener. You can only judge the quality of sound (against YOUR OWN set of standards) when you sit down yourself and play the guitar in question. For at least an hour.
    I've heard guys getting great tone with an Ibanez GB10 but I've never been able to cop that, tried hard for years... with my Gibby's , my Trenier, my Victor Baker and my Tele I have no problem dialing great sounds regardless of the amp I'm plugged into.

    Re the issue of old(er) guitars developing issues over time : new ones are no exception. You never know for sure what will happen in changing climates, during a dry winter, a humid summer etc. When your new guitar is built in Brazil with it's normally high humidity and you take it to California or New Mexico you can be sure that the wood will react quite severely. My '63 Super-400CES is the most stable guitar in my collection, there has been no need to adjust the trussrod or raise/lower the action in years.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thinking back about archtops I've played and many others I've heard, I can't say that I found boutique modern guitars better.

    The best sounding guitar I've played was a late 30's Gibson L5. I've played a number of original D'angelicos over the years, all of which sounded good, but I'd still pick the L5, if I had to pick.

    I've heard Borys, Benedetto and others. But they didn't strike me as any better than, oddly enough, a Fender from the D'Aquisto years, which sounded awesome thru a Twin in the hands of a good player.

    The only reason I'd do it is if there was something about the custom made guitar that I needed and couldn't get in an existing instrument.
    interesting. I know a lot more about violin luthiers that I do about guitar makers, and in that world the modern standard is generally considered significantly higher than ever before. I'd like to hear more opinions on that; assuming a luthier is highly skilled/trained- is their work unlikely to surpass an old L7?

  9. #8

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    There is no best old vs new, only personal preference. You'll hear about old woods, finish, etc. What really matters is what speaks to you personally.

    Also once amplified,the acoustic preference becomes way secondary. In fact this one main reason many well known players play laminates,due to feedback issues as well as temperatures affecting the playability.

  10. #9

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    There are great vintage guitars, there are junk vintage guitars, and most are somewhere in between. The same goes for new guitars, both factory produced and hand made. Archtops vary widely in quality and sound, especially sound. It always comes down to an individual guitar, and whether you like it, love it, or hate it.

  11. #10

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    There are really a lot of great used archtops out there, and prices are reasonable. There is a good chance you'll find what you like, or have the option to return something if it doesn't work out. You'll probably spend less.

    I think most of us fantasize about having a guitar made just for us, and if you have some money to play with, why not? But there's a very real possibility that the result won't live up to your expectations.

    Just speaking from personal experience...

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilpy
    There are really a lot of great used archtops out there, and prices are reasonable. There is a good chance you'll find what you like, or have the option to return something if it doesn't work out. You'll probably spend less.

    I think most of us fantasize about having a guitar made just for us, and if you have some money to play with, why not? But there's a very real possibility that the result won't live up to your expectations.

    Just speaking from personal experience...
    interesting point.

    lets say I want a modern handmade one-maker guitar, who are the makers you'd be looking for pre-owned models from, and where would you be looking?

    My only "must have" is a top notch acoustic tone and F holes. everything else is negotiable, cutaway, non cutaway, pickup, no pickup, color, etc.

  13. #12

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    I've never played one, but if I were in the market, I would look closely at a Campellone. I have never heard anything negative about one. Buscarinos also have a good reputation. Benedettos are more common, and the quality is consistently top-notch, but even a used solid carved-top model is very expensive. Mostly what you see for sale are laminates, which can still be very good guitars. Personally, I went through YolandaTeam and had a Wu made for me, and I'm very happy with it. My only negatives with it are my own fault - the 1.75" neck isn't perfect for me, and a slightly wider non-cutaway model may have been a slightly better choice, but I got what I ordered, and now I'm being tempted to try again. For reasons that I've never understood, my wife does not think I need another guitar, though.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groooooove
    interesting point.

    lets say I want a modern handmade one-maker guitar, who are the makers you'd be looking for pre-owned models from, and where would you be looking?

    My only "must have" is a top notch acoustic tone and F holes. everything else is negotiable, cutaway, non cutaway, pickup, no pickup, color, etc.


    I'd look on this forum, Reverb, Gbase, The Gear Page, Craigs List and ebay of course. All with the necessary caution, always.
    Dealers : myjazzhome.com, archtop.com,
    Brands/models I'd look for are :
    Gibson L4, L5, L7, L10, L12
    Epiphone Deluxe

    Contemporary makers :
    - Campellone
    - Victor Baker
    - American Archtop
    - Buscarino
    - Trenier
    - Benedetto
    - Comins
    - Mirabella
    - Koentopp
    - Triggs
    - Phifer
    - Moffa
    - Borys
    - Holst
    - Elferink
    -

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groooooove
    interesting. I know a lot more about violin luthiers that I do about guitar makers, and in that world the modern standard is generally considered significantly higher than ever before. I'd like to hear more opinions on that; assuming a luthier is highly skilled/trained- is their work unlikely to surpass an old L7?
    I've heard Gibsons, original D'Angelicos and that Fender sound so good it's hard to imagine a guitar sounding significantly better.
    How much better would Wes have sounded with a different guitar?

    If I were to have a guitar made, I'd carefully specify the neck and feel I want. Because of arthritis, I'm most comfortable on a neck that other players would likely find too small. As a result, there may not be an existing instrument with my spec. But, the skinny neck might not sound good. I wouldn't be comfortable paying thousands for something with questionable resale value that I might not even like.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitman
    I'd look on this forum, Reverb, Gbase, The Gear Page, Craigs List and ebay of course. All with the necessary caution, always.
    Dealers : myjazzhome.com, archtop.com,
    Brands/models I'd look for are :
    Gibson L4, L5, L7, L10, L12
    Epiphone Deluxe

    Contemporary makers :
    - Campellone
    - Victor Baker
    - American Archtop
    - Buscarino
    - Trenier
    - Benedetto
    - Comins
    - Mirabella
    - Koentopp
    - Triggs
    - Phifer
    - Moffa
    - Borys
    - Holst
    - Elferink
    -
    To Gitman's list I would add the inestimable Daniel SLAMAN, whose instruments are excellent....

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groooooove
    interesting point.

    lets say I want a modern handmade one-maker guitar, who are the makers you'd be looking for pre-owned models from, and where would you be looking?

    My only "must have" is a top notch acoustic tone and F holes. everything else is negotiable, cutaway, non cutaway, pickup, no pickup, color, etc.
    A used Steve Andersen “Streamline” would fulfill your needs. It’s his non- custom model but is every bit as good as his custom made. (I’ve owned both)
    Great acoustic and electric sound. Playability is the best, as are woods and workmanship. They’re all a little different, some 16” some 17”, different pickups etc. They turn up used in the $3400-$3900 range.

  18. #17
    i've searched many of the names listed and diddn't really come up with anything too exciting.

    this looks like the best deal i've seen.. 36 L7 listed on reverb for $3500




    in my experience (upright basses) repaired cracks like that are normal and not a concern. would and of you pick this guitar in my position? sounds nice, is a classic (which i'm not at all against), and within the expected budget comparing to the modern guitar I was considering commissioning.

  19. #18
    sorry for double-posting, but this caught my eye.
    Solomon Phidelity Acoustic Archtop Jazz Guitar - musical instruments - by owner - sale

    it's not exactly what I was looking for (I wanted F holes!!) but it looks to be worth a taste - i live 5 minutes from where that guitar is located..

    anyone have thoughts on this one?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groooooove
    sorry for double-posting, but this caught my eye.
    Solomon Phidelity Acoustic Archtop Jazz Guitar - musical instruments - by owner - sale

    it's not exactly what I was looking for (I wanted F holes!!) but it looks to be worth a taste - i live 5 minutes from where that guitar is located..

    anyone have thoughts on this one?
    Don't know anything specific about this guitar but it looks interesting!

    I've owned a bunch of nice archtops but recently got my first one with a soundhole in the side. It makes a huge difference in the quality of tone that the player hears, and I would very much recommend that feature, if available .

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilpy
    Don't know anything specific about this guitar but it looks interesting!

    I've owned a bunch of nice archtops but recently got my first one with a soundhole in the side. It makes a huge difference in the quality of tone that the player hears, and I would very much recommend that feature, if available .
    I spent a while playing that guitar today, it was a beautiful guitar... extremely deep and rich sound... clear and crisp articulation.

    I think i want something closer to traditional - or with F holes at least.

    anyone else want to comment on the L-7 I posted below? does that crack under the pickguard scare you?