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I am fighting the tone of my set up - 175 with classic 57 into a Princeton clone with a 12 inch emi 158 i think it is.
I find my tone too bright at the top end and too thick up high, woofy in the low highs. I tried Fralin p90 in a humbucker, the tone was not that different so put the classic 57s back in.
Have varied my pick up height plenty and settled on higher is best
any thoughts out there?
currently have volume all the way down to 5 takes away some of the woofy ness and tone on 7 takes away some of the highs but is so thick.
acoustically the guitar sounds terrific, much better than a mates carved top, but amped up the balance is just not right.
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12-15-2019 10:25 PM
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At home volumes, or gigs?? Use a 10" speaker....
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I would try a different speaker.
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adjust with an EQ pedal?
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Originally Posted by gggomez
Does your clone have a mid control installed? The Princeton with a 12" eminence can sound this way with a 175. It's a very efficient speaker the Princeton is arguably the warmest of the Fender circuits. The 175 with it's depth, has a robust bass response. A princeton with a 12" can enhance this. A speaker change would no doubt work but it's quite a rabbit hole finding the right one. I would suggest using a mid control to possibly shift the tone response to a point where you like it.
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I play my ES-175, on the rare occasions I'm not using my Eastman, through a Loud-box Mini and have none of those issues.
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The Princeton, like the Tweed Deluxe, is a very warm sounding amp. Skiboyny is correct about this.
Cut the bass and the treble on the amp--it gives a flatter sound from the Princeton. Try bass=1, treble=1.
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IMO you never want the bass above 2 on a Princeton (1.5 is where I usually keep it). Treble depends on taste and on what speaker you have. With some speakers I’ve had to set treble up to around 5 on my Princeton clone.
The pickups and their height make a difference. For humbuckers on an archtop (like my 175) I like it not too close to the strings.
As for speaker, you may want to check out the Eminence Legend 1258. There are mixed opinions on that speaker but it sounds great in the right amp. In a Princeton I think it cuts out some of the bottom end in a good way. Chris Whiteman has one in his Princeton clone and it sounds perfect with his 175. This is one of the best sounding rigs for organ trio jazz I think I’ve heard.
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Nice playing and sound on the 175/Princeton.
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Yeah that sound is almost there. Certainly not woof, especially on the chords. I am tipping he has his guitar volume on about 5 and he does have a real p90.
I am listening to Jonathan Kreisberg’s new live recording as a type, Body and Soul, man that tone, the chime of the high notes, that is exactly what I am chasing.
oh Greentone every time i see a post from you I think about the Tweed Deluxe I past over when buying the Princeton, best amp I have ever heard but I was scared of its early break up.
I had the 10 inch legend in a PRRI I had to ditch as constantly broke down, it was the best speaker I had tried. Might give 1275 a try, another $200 out the door. Seems like a massive speaker for such a little amp but I guess the Alessandro 1265 which I was also contemplating is almost as big.
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Similar problem to my guitar and PR. See my thread entitled "Humbuckers uneven response" here.
Some good advice, and tips to spur you on to experimenting, before dropping money on new speakers. I played with my p/up adjustments to even things out, but I was surprised when I turned down the bass and boosted the Middle control (a custom installation worth its weight in gold). I didn't expect that difference - it seemed illogical to my problem, but it worked!
I also have an Eminence, but 10 in. speaker, a Legend 1058. Great speaker.
So, EQ is your friend, see if you can try a pedal for that.
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The Mid control is an easy mod and it's passive. By shifting the value of the mid resistor in the circuit it's also changes the treble and bass response. Not active so it doesn't add anything. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
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The mid control adds a hole in the chassis. A less invasive alternative would be to replace the 6800 ohm mid resister with 10K. That would be the equivalent of adding a mid control and setting it to 10. Originally Posted by skiboyny
As other have suggested, Fender tone stacks are easiest to tame by starting with minimum bass and treble. If there’s a mid control I set it high. Then bring up treble to taste, then slightly bring up bass to taste. I rarely cut the mids.
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The added mid control on my PR (I didn't install it) does an incredible job. You have a full range of tones made possible which is great when switching guitar types, or playing different rooms.
By turning up the mids, the amp sounds larger and larger, adding girth to notes without break-up.
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I have a PR with a 10" Jensen C10Q, so maybe not applicable to your set-up, but it can get pretty boomy sounding. To tame that, I have the bass side of the neck pups on my P90 and humbucker guitars set significantly lower than the treble side. I keep the bass on the amp all the way down, and treble on 1 or two. Originally Posted by gggomez
John
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So Chris Whiteman is playing with a P90 p/up on the 175. That is the sound man! I think I'll be trying one on my L5 for the clarity it brings.
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The 50s ES175 with P90 and 50s L5 with P90s sound fantastic.
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Although in the case of the staple pole pickup on the L5, I am not sure if you still call it a true P90.
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Try a low capacitance cable, like a George L's .155. 16 pF/foot, very clear sounding and may be helpful. Many cables out there have capacitance several times higher.
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Let me take a different direction: I've played Princeton for many years with my ES-175 (late-80s, all mahogany) and I hear what the OP is saying. Playing around with the preamp tubes can really change the tone of the amp - especially when using humbuckers. I won't give a long explanation here. Suffice it say, in my Princeton, I use a different tube in the V1 socket and the phase inverter. I also play with the biasing too - cooling down the amp a bit. I've got it sounding very clear, clean, and full with my Gibsons (175 and 335). Even when I'm playing a little larger dance halls and have to turn it up to 6 or 7 (which is where Princetons really like to break up), it stays clean. I do Fender amp repair and build work, but you don't need to be a tech to make some inexpensive mods that really will change your tone.
If Chris Whiteman is playing his Headstrong Lil' King in the above video, it's a bit more than a Princeton clone. Headstrong does some really nice mods to the classic PR circuit to get that sound. As much as I love my Princeton with a 12" Jensen, that Headstrong has become my new dream amp!
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Does it have 500K or 250K potentiometers? What is the capacitor value?
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If I had exhausted all non-invasive options (different strings, different picks, pickup height, amp on or off the floor, location of amp in room, my location relative to the amp and walls, etc.) and my last resort was to start tinkering with tube bias, resistor values, altering the amp's circuit by adding additional controls, etc. **just to get a decent basic tone**, I'd probably look at replacing either the amp or guitar for one that fits better with the other.
Last edited by wzpgsr; 12-24-2019 at 06:10 PM.
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I agree with others about starting with the tone controls. I would turn the bass all the way down, and start with the treble near zero, and increase that as necessary. The treble control actually cuts the bass even further, it does not add treble.
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IME a higher pickup can contribute to the symptoms described. As a starting point, try the Bill Lawrence method of setting the pickup at one nickel's gap between the high E string and the pickup when holding the string down at the highest fret. On the low E, two nickels' space. From there, drop the pickup evenly. The bass will tend to drop off a bit faster. If there is too much volume loss, raise the polepieces but keep the magnets lower.
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AGREED - what a great sound. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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