The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    No shortage of spruce or maple in the world for carved archtop guitars.
    Good luthiers use good, well-aged wood.
    Some buy it as they need it from specialist wood suppliers, some buy it and stockpile it.
    Some even cut their own.
    It's a non-issue. Marketing noise.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    No shortage of spruce or maple in the world for carved archtop guitars.
    Good luthiers use good, well-aged wood.
    Some buy it as they need it from specialist wood suppliers, some buy it and stockpile it.
    Some even cut their own.
    It's a non-issue. Marketing noise.
    I think I'll also agree to disagree on this one.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    I think I'll also agree to disagree on this one.
    Agreed.
    I've been close friends w a few prominent luthiers over the yrs. They all said that highly figured maple for example was more plentiful than ever. But they all also said they had a very difficult time securing properly seasoned woods, at least in the US.
    They might acquire a few sets and found the moisture content was typically too high.

  5. #29

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    nor was highly figured maple ever considered the best tone wood!!..despite it's visual allure

    cheers

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Agreed.
    I've been close friends w a few prominent luthiers over the yrs. They all said that highly figured maple for example was more plentiful than ever. But they all also said they had a very difficult time securing properly seasoned woods, at least in the US.
    They might acquire a few sets and found the moisture content was typically too high.
    Highly figured maple is more plentiful because the supply has been augmented with large amounts of Western Maple.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    nor was highly figured maple ever considered the best tone wood!!..despite it's visual allure

    cheers
    True that, but bling sells.
    If you're having a custom 10K+ guitar built you're probably gonna want the anti mid 70s Gibson maple.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Highly figured maple is more plentiful because the supply has been augmented with large amounts of Western Maple.
    Yessir, agree completely.
    For example, the Michigan maple that Gibson used back in the day isn't nearly as plentiful these days.

  9. #33

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    As Mark Campellone told me once "Fancy wood doesn't mean it sounds better."
    In fact while wood quality is important, it's the maker carving it that probably is most important to the sound.

    That said, I prefer thicker carved tops to the lighter thinner ones in the Benedetto or Heritage archtop style. Those sound more like a flat top to my ears, and lack the midst of a heavier build.

  10. #34

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    In the end I have no doubt whatsoever that a given modern L-5 or Super, etc is at least as well built as any that came before, light or heavy build notwithstanding.
    But like Neatomic points out, a well played vintage guitar made w/ aged woods typically is going to sound better, it has those two advantages from jump.

    I've had many vintage archtops and their modern equivalents played side by side and the played in vintage ones typically sound better, not always but usually. There's no hype there, and a similarly built new Gibson would likely sound just as good over time if built w the same aged woods, pickups etc, and was played in, no reason it wouldn't, though old growth wood could be a factor.
    Now if we can fast forward 30 yrs we'd have a more defined answer.
    All that said, modern Gibsons can be excellent, I've owned and played some good ones, they are first class instruments, I still have one or two myself.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Interesting point. Some argue the oven dried woods used today are simply inferior to what was available in the past. Some argue the structure of the woods change when dried in an oven and that that change is not beneficial to the sound.

    But then, if you are selling an 8k guitar why not make sure your woods are naturally dried for your top models? How hard is it to create a limited supply of woods dried in the open air and use that as a selling point? It only takes some space ...
    And 40-50 years for them to dry out; the creme de la creme of luthiers have their own stocks of fine old woods, like Monteleone, Benedetto, Manzer, etc., which they have been safeguarding for decades. No doubt Gibson had those stocks too, but at the volumes they produce it's possible those have been used up a long time ago. Or maybe they're still flush, I really don't know. However, Benedetto made a point by building an arch top out of knotty pine suitable for rough carpentry... and it sounded fine. The skilled luthier can and does, to a great extent, adjust for the unique properties of the specific piece of wood as the construction of the guitar proceeds.

    And then as has been pointed out, wood changes over decades. My house was built in 1908 and in the course of remodeling I have had a chance to heft some of the old wood, which is now almost featherlight it is so dry. Not only does moisture migrate out of the wood, the structure of the remaining material changes- resins, etc. We've hopefully all picked up an old guitar and smelled the distinctive scent of old wood; some guitars you know they will sound good just from that smell.

    For tonewoods there are problems, one of which is that the old growth forests of suitable woods in the US and Europe have been by and large cut down long ago. For the good wood that remains there is competition from fine furniture makers, wood carvers, cabinet makers, etc. And much of that wood is in places where it is hard to get it out after harvesting. Some of those trees have become mythical beings in their own right- one is just known as The Tree.

    The Tree — Luthiers for a Cause

    As for why Gibson is overbuilding... one theory I have read is kerfed braces. To save labor and money, Gibson went to kerfed braces long ago which resulted in sunken tops. They don't have to be carved to fit the top because they're flexible. Because those braces are only as strong as the thin parts of the wood at the bottom of the kerfs, they provide little support against string tension. Some braces have a cap glued onto the tops of the braces, but often that wood fractures. So Gibson beefed up the tops, once they figured it out- a thicker top is stiffer, bearing more of the load and relying less on the bracing.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    When I played the "photoshoot" 1960 L5 last week I was able to compare it with a 2007 L5 side by side.The 1960 L5 was a much nicer guitar. It had a perfect neck, way more comfortable and less chunky than the 2007 one. It was of a much lighter build and more responsive so better sounding acoustically. The top on the 1960 was notably thinner. It was almost a different guitar that sounded different too amplified. The 2007 was built like a tank, just like the 1995 Wesmo .

    So why is Gibson doing this?
    One phrase comes to mind:

    "They just don't make'em the way they used to"

    /thread

  13. #37

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    easy - warranty

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    easy - warranty
    They actually prioritise warranty even for 10k guitars?

    DB

  15. #39

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    I doubt Gibson was using naturally dried wood towards the end of the 50ies: they would have needed to use wood that was already laid aside to dry in the 30ies and 40ies. Demand for guitars was rising fast and Brasil and Honduras were exporting large quantities of wood to the US. A '60ies L5 is probably already made from oven or kiln-dried wood? (Mahogany, rosewood and ebony that is, perhaps spruce is a different story?) (This is all very speculative btw, I can't really back this up with facts, but it makes sense to me ;-)

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    They actually prioritise warranty even for 10k guitars?

    DB
    Gibson began overbuilding in the '60s due to sunken top and other repair issues. Several luthiers have mentioned to me the differences in top thickness, bracing, etc. After humbuckers were introduced there were problems with the tops sinking. When folks tell me that the new guitars are "just as good" as the vintage ones I always think about this. The new ones *MAY* in fact sound good, but they are not made the same. This is also why many of the vintage ones have sunken tops and other issues though...

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Gibson began overbuilding in the '60s due to sunken top and other repair issues. Several luthiers have mentioned to me the differences in top thickness, bracing, etc. After humbuckers were introduced there were problems with the tops sinking. When folks tell me that the new guitars are "just as good" as the vintage ones I always think about this. The new ones *MAY* in fact sound good, but they are not made the same. This is also why many of the vintage ones have sunken tops and other issues though...
    I've seen sunken tops on guitars like prewar Gibson ES-150s w /the heavy Christian pu's and some ES-175s, but never on a humbucker L-5 or Super 400, not even once.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I've seen sunken tops on guitars like prewar Gibson ES-150s w /the heavy Christian pu's and some ES-175s, but never on a humbucker L-5 or Super 400, not even once.
    I have on both gibson and heritage. However, it's less prevalent on L5s and IMO, here's why:

    On the 175, rather than cut the bracing to match the curvature of the top, gibson took the shortcut of kerfing the braces so they were more flexible and took straight pieces of wood with kerfs and glued them to the top. On the more expensive archtops, the bracing is hand carved to match the curve of the top. A lot of the '80s 175 braces are kerfed only in a few strategic areas. Not all the way through like the double cutaway ES-150 or the Heritage 550.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I've seen sunken tops on guitars like prewar Gibson ES-150s w /the heavy Christian pu's and some ES-175s, but never on a humbucker L-5 or Super 400, not even once.
    I don't think I've ever seen a kerfed brace on an L5 or a Super 400. I've seen plenty of them on ES-175 guitars though. This might explain sunken tops on the 175--common--and not on the L5 or Super 400. This supports Jack's hypothesis.

  20. #44

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    60's guitars were already made with the "new" wood. Good, old growth spruce resources were already depleted by the 60's in North America because of the World Wars. Airplanes at the time, like guitars, required wood with high stiffness to weight ratio. Spruce is the soft wood with the highest stiffness to weight ratio. That's why war planes were built using instrument grade spruce.
    Guitars made after 30's all pretty much use the same quality spruce.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-16-2019 at 02:18 PM.

  21. #45

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    The bottom line is, we all gravitate to guitars that speak to us. Good thing there are so many great choices available for everyone.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    They actually prioritise warranty even for 10k guitars?

    DB
    I would think it should be their highest warranty priority. Who wants to get returns from your highest paying customers? A guitar at that price can become devalued by repairs and then you have a really angry customer.

  23. #47

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    I don't have much to add. But I've discussed this with some of the original Heritage luthiers.

    It is much harder to carve a thin top and back than thicker ones. It takes more time and risks cracking the wood. Some people want the top and back thin and tuned, and they will pay for the most experienced carvers, like Aaron Cowles and Marv Lamb. Most people don't care. The default is a thicker top.

    Heritage used to make most of their floater pickup guitars lighter, especially up until about 2005 or so.

  24. #48

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    Pickup mounting holes are structural weaknesses. Tops are arched to structurally resist the downward force created by the tailpiece/bridge design. Putting a hole right near the bridge saddle eliminates a lot of the support from the arched design. Imagine putting a big hole right near the bridge of a violin.

    Archtop guitars were designed based on the knowledge transfer from the violin and the cello world. Initially they didn't put pickups in them, so light build design worked. I presume guitars that sink have pickup holes. Probably they realized that they had to adopt the design for this structural change. I guess that's also why L5 CES's are more heavily built than L5 WesMo's.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Pickup mounting holes are structural weaknesses. Tops are arched to structurally resist the downward force created by the tailpiece/bridge design. Putting a hole right near the bridge saddle eliminates a lot of the support from the arched design. Imagine putting a big hole right near the bridge of a violin.

    Archtop guitars were designed based on the knowledge transfer from the violin and the cello world. Initially they didn't put pickups in them, so light build design worked. I presume guitars that sink have pickup holes. Probably they realized that they had to adopt the design for this structural change. I guess that's also why L5 CES's are more heavily built than L5 WesMo's.
    Going to disagree here, violins have a sound post that brings top and back together in the sound. Archtop guitars are based on the back that sound going out and push with back rigid block, so to speak. Other than f holes not so similar at all, plus strings are bowed not plucked ordinary.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    Going to disagree here, violins have a sound post that brings top and back together in the sound. Archtop guitars are based on the back that sound going out and push with back rigid block, so to speak. Other than f holes not so similar at all, plus strings are bowed not plucked ordinary.
    Violins are different than archtop guitars on my accounts. I would believe that they don't work the same way. But the idea of early archtop designs were based on violins and cellos. Many sources state that the inspiration of Orvilla Gibson's invention were these instruments. Though I think it was first applied to Mandolins.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-16-2019 at 03:22 PM.