The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Hi to you all!, I've found this old discussion very interesting so I've signed up to join this cool forum.
    I'd really like to recreate (I already know that Pat magic touch cannot be cloned) the cool Methenyesque chorused tone like the one you can hear in the "Travels" tune (and in a bunch of other tunes from the old Metheny era) from Pat's Travels double CD.

    I've been told that newer MX series are totally rubbish when compared to PCM80 or 81 units.
    Given the sky-high price of PCM units I'd like to know if someone in here has managed to nail this wonderful Pat tone using an MX200/300/400.
    Any mp3 or Soundclouds samples?.

    Thanks a lot!

    Charlie.


    Toys: SPX90II, Quadraverb, Verbzilla, Digidelay, Magicstomp, X3Live, Behringer CC300 & yellow chorus, Zoom G3.

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  3. #27

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    I never understood the quest for Metheny's tone being on the gear route. I can get that for Rosenwinkel or Mike Stern, but I think Metheny's tone is much more based on his approach to guitar than gear - get a flat / dark "jazz amp" and do the two delays thing, add a little reverb from any good pedal and you're done.

    The hard part comes from light pick, light attack, tons of downstrokes, tons of legatto, light strings (011)... lots of slides also. Transcribe some of his solos and you'll get his sound.

  4. #28

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    Thanks for your quick reply!.

    What I'm looking for right now is this neat dual sine VCO modulated delay of the former Metheny which is the one I love the most.

    For ex. his tone in "TRIO 99->00" CD is not so "revolutionary" (even if his chops and taste are extremely refined).

    It may seem a piece of cake but is not that simple even using two dd's & rev to nail his vibe.

  5. #29

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    I agree his tone on trios records is usually less elaborate than his group sounds. The "dual sine" might not be easy to get but I still think his core sounds comes much more from the things I mentioned than from that... But I heard the song you said and I guess it's not easy to get that specific very 80s sound. Maybe a good chorus pedal could nail it?

    BTW I think his "Trio Live" is his best record (basically the live version of the CD you mentioned).

  6. #30

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    Sounds to me that Pat started getting away from the "chorused" sound in his PMG recordings starting with First Circle back in 1984.....not that he ever actually used a chorus. He still uses delay and reverb but the modulation part has pretty much gone.

    As far as his hair....that's his business.

    Somebody mentioned that he needed a makeover. Seems like he's always been making his musical self over just from the variety of musical situations he puts himself into. There certainly is a difference between Phase Dance, The Roots of Coincidence, 80/81, Offramp and Letter From Home, to name a few.

    As far as really trying to recreate it, try finding a couple of Lexicon Prime Time units...I doubt that you will.

  7. #31

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    Since this thread started in 2010, the Line 6 Pod HD series has appeared in which you can process two signals in parallel. So the whole "two delays and modulations" thing should be quite easy to do in the one box without having to buy multiple pedals.

    After listening to some of Jim Soloway's clean sounds from a Pod recently (hear them in a different thread), the idea of using a Pod for modern, "clean but with subtle effects" jazz tones, has become a lot more appealing.

    If anyone can nail the Pat M sound, how about Ulf Wakenius ?

  8. #32

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    I like Wayne Krantz' remark about this stuff...."why would a grown man want to sound like somebody else?"

  9. #33

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    I understand that Krantz sentence and I agree with it BUT it's not bad to try to get stuff from your heros as long as you don't sound like a clone. I always loved the way Rosenwinkel uses delay and reverb and I am glad I can get that present sound he has. I also love how Kreisberg plays everything stacatto but can still swing and hide the pick attack, working a lot on that.

    I don't know what's the goal of the guys asking things here but stealing small portions of a guys sound it's not bad. Trying to sound 100% like another guy is bad (true for sound or for improvisation content)

  10. #34

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    I have always found his sound to be "cheesy"- clearly he's a great guitarist, and a serious musician, and of course matters of taste are subjective etc, but to me it just sounds so processed and quite "of its time"- ie the 1980s/90s
    Last edited by Ob Com; 04-29-2012 at 06:45 AM.

  11. #35

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    I'd love to hear Pat plugged straight into Jim Hall's old Gibson GA-50.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02
    I'd love to hear Pat plugged straight into Jim Hall's old Gibson GA-50.
    I bet he would sound pretty close to what he sounds trough his rig.

    Pat gigs with an Henriksen on small clubs according to an interview on GP some years ago, would like to hear him trough that amp.

    By the way the Jim Hall amp is modded by Harry Kolbe to be quite darker than the stock one.

  13. #37

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    My TC Nova can get near to "that" sound,but even playing with a good chorus into the parallel effect loop of an amp,so you can mix between the amount of wet and dry signal,can do as well

  14. #38

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    Pat talks about his guitars in the Feb 2016 issue of Vintage Guitar, including Les Paul's prewar ES-150 [supposedly previously owned by Charlie Christian] and his new Slaman 250 copy.

    He also says his famous ES-175 still has the original frets [how the heck is that possible?]

  15. #39

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    I'm wondering if you meant his custom 16" cutaway Slaman, of which Richard (Eddie Lang) and I own "Sisters," or one of the new CC 100 year commemorative models that Daniel Slaman recently finished. I was told that Pat had an angle on one of those in addition to his custom Slaman guitar.

  16. #40

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    he mentions the 150/250 w/cutaway that he played w/Ron Carter recently. I think you said it's a 16" wide guitar, no?

  17. #41

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    Yes, it's 16" with a cutaway. That's the custom instrument he discussed with Mr. Slaman before a concert in the Netherlands back in 2014. It came to fruition early this year, and Daniel made four "Sisters" of the same model. Three are blonde like Pat's, and one is black.

  18. #42

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    Hi,

    From my own discussion with DS, 16" apart, Pat was also after a 17'' Commemorative Charlie Christian 100th anniversary series. Of that I am sure, because Daniel was expecting the 17" model Pat would choose before he could certify I would get mine. Fortunately for me Pat chose a guitar different from the one I personaly selected.

    So Pat should have a 16" plus a 17" model.

    Cheers.

    Fred

  19. #43

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    Here's a picture of Metheny from Detroit Jazz Festival this past summer with his Daniel Slaman.

    "Poor Mans" Pat Metheny Sound?-pat-cc-jpg
    Last edited by docbop; 12-11-2015 at 04:59 AM.

  20. #44

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    I didn't know his strong affection for ES 150 pre-war guitars. I thought it was something new for him, at least that's what I understood after extensive talk with Daniel Slaman. But obviously he has been after CC sounds since his high school years. Yet another CC addict...

  21. #45

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    Hello

    My name is Sauro from Italy, I am a passionate guitar player, I am a lover of the sound of Metheny and although I know that its sound depends a lot on its plaiyng, I would still try to get a little closer to it.

    I have an Ibanez AG95 with its original Super58 pickups but they have a very different sound than what I would like to optain.

    I was thinking of getting a PM2 but I don't know how much it's worth and how much difference I can hear between PM2 and AG95.

    Unfortunately my shop doesn't have it, so I don't have the chance to try it.

    An alternative could be to replace the made in China Super 58 nech pickup with a Super58 Deluxe version

    but it is not easy to understand which version is closest to the Super58 for example of the PM200.

    Can any of you give me advice? Is it better to upgrade my AG95 or replace it with PM2?


    Thank you very much.

  22. #46

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    A lot of PM's sound is in his signal chain- two amps with different degrees of delay, etc. EQ wise there is an emphasis on midrange and de-emphasis on treble (yet this is less true with his recent acquisition of a Slaman with Charlie Christian style pickup). A lot can be done with EQ. Also his unique/arguably odd picking style is also central to his sound (thin Fender pick held between thumb and two fingers, bent).

    One of the Gibson VOS 1959 ES-175 reissues would probably be a good platform to start from. The PM-2 is allegedly aimed at sounding along those lines- PM says he can't tell the sound of his Ibanez from the sound of his ES-175 (e.g., both were used on Secret Story and nobody gets it right as to which guitar is on which track).

  23. #47

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    I don't think you'll like this answer, and I don't know whether it will help.

    If you handed your AG95 to Pat Metheny, with your amp and all your accessories, when he played it he would sound exactly like ... Pat Metheny.
    If Pat Metheny handed you his guitar and the rest of it, when you played it you would sound like you.

    Don't look to your equipment for tone salvation. Practice more. As you practice you will find various tweaks to your playing that you can implement to help you sound more like what you're striving for.

    On the other hand, if you want a new guitar, get one. Just don't expect it to change your sound much. What it might do is to inspire you to practice more, which could lead you to figure out how to achieve a change in your sound.

  24. #48

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    yeah, agree with the previous people, put some flats on a hollowbody, and transcribe and rip off as much as possible, for me Pat is one of my favorites of all time, but his tone is something I am not super fond of.. his music is a different story and has brought me incredible pleasure, especially the old PMG with Lyle Mays... for tone, there are lots of other guys who I love so much more

  25. #49

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    I liked his early tone on the first 2-3 PMG records on ECM. I have a hard time with his later sound with multiple delays, etc. Too spongy and it's hard to actually hear what he's playing.

  26. #50

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    I really like PM and his sound. Guitar player of highest order. Never had the desire to play like him or even try and figure it out.

    Like Clint Eastwood......a person has to know his limitations...

    Not the post you need but....