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My definition of usable tone is gear that sounds good enough to not get in the way of the musician and the music. Gear that lets the music and the musicians abilities speak for themselves. No bells and whistles, but capable of facilitating anything the musician has to offer. That applies to guitars, amps, pedals etc. Of course when it comes to guitars, playability is also included in this.
Most of us I believe experienced this. Affordable, humble gear that makes you feel that you don't need anything else to have a fulfilling life as a musician and become the best you can be.
Yet many of us still search for more (myself included). Go figure.Last edited by Tal_175; 11-22-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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11-22-2019 12:21 PM
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People spend too much time concentrating on getting a specific sound when they should just be concerned with getting a GOOD sound by using their hands and their ears.
I've played through very few setups where I could honestly say they were completely "unusable."
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I had unusable tone at a venue once. The tone just wasn't right. It really affected the way I played. But when that happens, it's usually an EQ mismatch with the room or some other setup issue. I didn't have time to set things up properly that time.
Another time I remember witnessing unusable tone was a keyboard player using a guitar amp with the volume max out
Last edited by Tal_175; 11-22-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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Yeah, most rooms, an electric guitar is gonna sound like an electric guitar. It's fine, perfectly acceptable. This made me realize I need to sell off most of my jazz guitars. Which I did. No more GAS. How refreshing it is to not worry about maintenance on 10-15 instruments. And just concentrate on playing a select few. And really get on with the prospect of playing them.
That's why I've sold off most of my guitars and am down to 4 electric jazz guitars (2 archtops and 2 semi-hollows--actually, essentially, two different guitars with a backup for each). That doesn't mean anything goes: I have very specific requirements for the semi-hollows (Victor Baker and Gibson ES-339): TI-Benson 14-55 flats + Jason Lollar Charlie Christian neck pickup for the HB route. Basically renders the bridge pickup in each useless. Neck pickup only. Absolutely perfect for my needs, especially coupled with the size. The few times I play out, it's gonna be those two guitars. As far as I know, I'm the only one who has put a CC on a semi-hollow
The really GREAT sound is reserved for recording or at home.
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Two words:
Fender Squire Classic Vibe 50s Telecaster
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There are of course individual stylistic preferences. Some like big, full body archtops, some like solid bodies, some like tubes, some like SS etc. It's possible the find good "usable" options for all types of gear.
What's even more important is preferences in "nuances" like strings, picks, instrument setup etc.
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I fully agree with the first sentence. But I've often encountered set ups that, while maybe not completely unusable, come close to ruining the experience. Hereabouts, one typically rehearses in rehearsal studios, and often performs through house backlines. It can get ugly.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Specifically with respect to the OP topic, I only own simple, reasonably priced stuff. Simplicity is a preference. Price is a more complicated subject, but I like all the gear that I have (and not just "for the price I paid" ).
John
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Yeah, I guess thinking more I come at this two ways.
I taught beginners for a loooong time, and something that I really started to harp on was producing a good tone. A lot of the instruments my students had weren't great, a lot of budget dreadnaught acoustics, which are really the worst sounding things on the planet. So I would have them work on fretting the string in a way that a note sounded "good," striking a string in a way that sounded "good," and looking at the difference between a pleasing sound and a not pleasing sound. So that sort of carried over into my own playing...how can I make this guitar sound good?
You do reach a point though, where the way you need to play a guitar or a guitar/amp setup interferes with you being able to express yourself the way you want. So I guess I'm saying, you have to find a guitar that allows you to do that. It has to be the right tool for the job. How many people have we had here over the years say they were trying to get a Joe Pass "Joy Spring" type tone and it turned out they just spent 2k on a new solid wood Eastman with a floating pickup?
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I also like mainly using one guitar instead of splitting my guitar time among many. I do practice 2-3 hours a day. You really get to know the instrument and learn how to get tones that you like. You get to know sound characteristics of every area of the fretboard , experiment with different picks and strings, know when to change the strings. You learn how to best amplify it.
Most important things are subconscious, adapting your technique to the instrument, how you attack strings for different expressive effects or tonal objectives etc. You learn all the strengths and weaknesses of the instrument and be able to get what you want out of it.
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After chasing various sounds over the years, I eventually got to a point where I could identify *my* sound and get it from a variety of instruments/amps. "My sound" emerges substantially from the things I can't do. I can't play very fast and I don't have big harmonic ears. So, when I solo, I have to build interest/excitement in other ways -- sustained notes, high notes, dynamics, some palm muting and a thick tone.
It requires a humbucker, a guitar with sustain, access to the upper frets, no feedback and a pedal board with two basic sounds (one clean, one processed). A range of amps will suffice, but there are amps I don't like, even though others like them. I don't know what I'm reacting to, but I hated the original Lunchbox and I have found at least one Line 6 amp unusuable. I'm not crazy about playing thru the Twin, although I've certainly liked it when others did it.
So, usable is when I sound like me and I can forget about the equipment. Unusable is when I feel like I'm playing the guitar with somebody else's hands. That is, I play a note and it doesn't sound at all like I heard it in my mind. Sometimes, I'll acclimate by the second set, sometimes not.
I can get my sound, or close, at the cheap end, with a Yamaha Pacifica (with a Lil 59 hb), a Boss ME80 and the Little Jazz, which is less than $1000, total. If I had to go even cheaper, I could probably get the sound, more or less, with a cheaper amp and an octave pedal instead of the ME80.
As an aside, tones I have really liked: Wes, Metheny in Bright Size Life, Santana, Knopfler, Charlie Christian, Kenny Burrell (Guitar Forms, for exampe) and Jim Hall (mid 60s).Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-22-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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Yes, it's definitely important to figure out how the way you play the instrument affects its sound, and leveraging that so you can deal with different conditions and equipment. Too many people think "their" sound comes from playing this guitar through that amp with those knob settings -- not out of Eric Johnsonitis, but because they haven't developed what you're talking about. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yeah, well, trial and error can get expensive. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
John
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Much as I like my Gibsons and nice amps, I can play my Epiphone Zephyr Regent Reissue ($500 or so) and my Polytone MiniBrute II (maybe $400 I paid?) and get a good sound, plenty good enough. I still love the extra of the Gibsons and the Fender Princeton or Tone Master Twin, but really the Epi and Polytone are better than I can play!
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Yes. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I'm trying to think when the Polytone era or shine evaporated or went away from general usage among pro level jazz guitarists (I still have my Polytone, which I bought for like $350, years ago--people seem to keep their Polytones, it seems). Originally Posted by lawson-stone
. Even a few years ago, when George Benson was playing at Symphony Center downtown , he stopped by my teacher's house to pick up a Polytone for the Symphony Center gig. The CSO doesn't keep Polytones on hand, it seems George apparently used a stereo set-up (Polytone plus Fender amp) at all his gigs, even the ones as prestigious as the Symphony Center. Not sure what he uses now, but that was only a few years ago.
The point being, even the greats used Polytones, they were considered "good enough".
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I actually still really like my Polytone, but I've found the key to it sounding good is when it's used just to amplify the guitar enough to be heard, not to play a loud gig.
Actually, I'm starting to look at amplification like that in general. Damn, I'm getting old.
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Yeah, absolutely true. "Loud enough to be heard" is the sweet spot for all carved jazz boxes. Especially if you can still hear the acoustic aspects of the instrument; such a beautiful mix. But not achievable at loud volumes. Anything more than this makes it sound like, if not outright crap, but like any other amplified guitar with a magnetic pickup. At home, with just the right amount of volume, an archtop sounds GREAT! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's why any big room that requires something loud kinda equalizes electric guitars.
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Back in the day, a Mini Brute was more expensive amp than a Princeton Reverb. My first amp was a SF Champ, and it was $75 new in 1979; at the time a PR was IIRC $125 and a DR was somewhere between $150 and $200. It's only relatively recently that they've become a "premium" piece of gear. So I don't really think of a Polytone as the basic one and the PR as the fancy one, even though the prices went in opposite directions. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
John
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For a long time, if you wanted something that was loud enough to keep up with a band, but small enough to carry, Polytones were really the only option. I never owned one, but a lot of people I knew (ca. mid 80s through early 90s) did, and a lot of them had problems with them (especially blown speakers). Then other stuff started coming out, like Roland Cubes, and AI, AER, and Henriksen somewhat later that did the same thing as Polyone, in some cases reliably and cheaper, and Polytone didn't keep up. I don't know one can't point to any one particular event or timeframe that did them in, but over a period of years they got overtaken by competitors. Originally Posted by NSJ
I'm trying to think when the Polytone era or shine evaporated or went away from general usage among pro level jazz guitarists (I still have my Polytone, which I bought for like $350, years ago--people seem to keep their Polytones, it seems).
. Even a few years ago, when George Benson was playing at Symphony Center downtown , he stopped by my teacher's house to pick up a Polytone for the Symphony Center gig. The CSO doesn't keep Polytones on hand, it seems George apparently used a stereo set-up (Polytone plus Fender amp) at all his gigs, even the ones as prestigious as the Symphony Center. Not sure what he uses now, but that was only a few years ago.
The point being, even the greats used Polytones, they were considered "good enough".
John
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Who’s down on polytones?
Did I miss a meeting?
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Yeah man. For jazz, just loud enough where the sound of the amp doesn’t completely mask the sound of the guitar. Any louder and I find the room acoustics start to get in the way, my ears get fatigued, etc. (I read somewhere recently that Barry Harris says jazz should be played at conversational level.) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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i'm with mr b's first post ^ #2
unless you are particularly trying to emulate the tone of a specific player or for a specific genre, your tone should be your tone..the tone you want to hear...in your own head...that tone can usually be dialed in to just about any gear...and if you can't, then its time to move on to new gear...but not before...
people jump from guitar and amp to guitar and amp..before they do all the other steps needed to getting their own tone..and thats everything from pick (or fingernail height) to type of strings, to adjusting the guitars volume and tone controls, to setup, to amp, speakers , amp placement etc etc
how many guys say they cant get good tone out of their guitar without ever even fooling with the guitars volume and tone controls!!! but would rather buy new pickups or paper in oil caps... ridiculous!
once you dial in your own tone..then and only then, do the nuances of different pieces of gear matter....otherwise you are just a gear trader/collector
cheers
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Lots of good points here.
A couple of years ago my Epi JP’s neck pickup (which I installed myself) shorted out on a gig, leaving me with only the bridge pickup. That was not pleasant.
Also I took my Fender SCXD to a gig fairly recently and discovered when I started playing that one of the tubes was blown. Really lousy sound.
Other than that, I like my Fishman Artist (with either a Gibson ES-135 or a Peerless Sunset) because I can get a good sound without too much fettling. It also has a sweepable midrange filter, which is a godsend for occasions when wolf tones start to show up in certain venues.
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I am often faced with unusable tone. And yea.. it's in my hands, not my gear. Sigh.
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I have some good amps but my favorite amp these days is the guitar amp built into the Boss DB-90 metronome with a tiny speaker. It sounds like music from a distant land heard on an AM radio. I'm addicted.
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