The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Ahh you're German too!

    I guess the back could be a laminate, the sides look solid, matching flame pattern in and out, check in several places. The top is definitely carved, looks it from the inside and sounds it . I have several older laminate full sized archtop electrics as well as one solid top electric and the difference acoustically is very obvious between them. The plywood guitars sound good but the solid top guitar sounds excellent. Initially I didn't find this guitar really attractive, though I liked how unique it looked. I bought it because of how lovely it sounded. nice ring and sustain and a LOT of projection.

    I would say my neck is more of a thick D shape with a bit of a flat spot on the back of the neck. it is very comfortable and easy to play despite it's size. it could have a bit of a 'C' because the neck with is about .25mm wider than the fretboard width but this could be the binding too. At the 5th fret my neck is about 29mm thick!

    0 fret- 42.28
    12th fret - 53.45

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  3. #127

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    "the sides look solid" - of course they are. Solid wood is much easier to bend than plywood / laminated and used throughout this period.

    "I would say my neck is more of a thick D shape with a bit of a flat spot on the back of the neck" Ok - just like mine

    "0 fret- 42.28 - 12th fret - 53.45" ah ok - so your neck has the more common taper whereas mine is more of that narrow type. (I see: you own a digital calliper too!).

    So: basically the same guitar with the usual variations to be expected from a German maker of that time.

  4. #128

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    Usually one sees archtops being all plywood or not. I have limited axperiece with German archtops, though I have had a Hofner at one point. It was all ply but had a clever spruce laminate on both sides of the top making it appear solid, as Gretsch did too with there 'spruce top' electric and some acoustic guitars(I have a 55 convertible and a 52 Electro look that look convincingly spruce but are both laminate.) However I recently acquired a taylor GS-mini(flattop) and it's solid top, ply back and sides and sounds very nice for what it is.

    I like the more conventional neck shape so that works for me. I find some Hofners, and strangely some Silvertones that have the neck that barely widens to be too narrow up near the body.

    The digital calipers were dirt cheap and are extremely useful

  5. #129

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    "Usually one sees archtops being all plywood or not" Does not count for the German archtops of the 50ies & 60ies. Solid tops combined with a laminated back was a very common thing - except for the very early years when the machines for pressing plates were not yet available and they needed to do everything by hand. From the early 60ies on I would guess that the production of all solid instruments declined considerately and by far most guitars where made all laminated or combining pressed solid plates with laminated backs. Good samples for the latter is the Hoyer model No. 19 "Esquire" or the (Glassl made) Hopf model No. 319. Sides were still solid for technical reasons.

    And the thing is: the catalogues are mostly anything but clear what is used in the construction. If the material is not mentioned at all you can be sure its plywood. Only if it explicitly states "massive Fichtendecke" (Hopf No. 317E; solid spruce, most likey pressed) or "gute Tonfichtendecke, ausgearbeitete Wölbung" (
    Hopf No. 317 S; solid spruce top, carved) it is solid - back plywood in both cases. So as a sample: the Hopf catalogue of the early 60ies lists 4 models with solid tops / laminated back, 5 models all laminated and 3 all solid models. The latter being super scarce and productions figures have been super low of these.
    And even more confusing: actual instruments are sometimes not consistently build to catalogue specs! Carved top is repaced by a pressed top or even with plywood - nicely made with spruce veneer (again: Hopf No. 319 is a good sample for this)

    Under the bottom line: the construction of your Fasan is anything but rare.

    Another point is that so many instruments offered now on ebay and elsewhere are wrongly described. Too often it says solid wood when the grain pattern and the non-existence of a center seam shouts: I am plywood!



  6. #130

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    "Usually one sees archtops being all plywood or not" Does not count for the German archtops of the 50ies & 60ies. Solid tops combined with a laminated back was a very common thing

    Yes, well as I said my experience with german archtops and the bizarre and dubious quirks of their construction, being Canadian and living here for the past 52 years, is limited. I am speaking from the older archtops I have familiarity with, which is all anyone can do.

    I have a luthier background and am well aware of guitar construction in general and all the ways wood is misnamed etc. in guitar marketing, but I will say I have never encountered an archtop with JUST a laminated back. And I have owned and repaired a fair amount. I play them professionally.


    "Under the bottom line: the construction of your Fasan is anything but rare."

    Don't worry, I won't dare think my guitar is special, rare, or well built, or anything really.

    I will enjoy it though, regardless of pedigree or internet opinion.

    In fact I will probably use it at a rehearsal I have today.

    Thank you for all your exceedingly informative replies, I was just trying to share the information with you that you requested.
    Last edited by What now?; 09-29-2019 at 02:25 PM.

  7. #131

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    Hi,

    Thanks for sharing the photos & the info - very much apprechiated!

    "anything but rare" was not meant in regard of a possible value, qualities as a musical instrument etc. Just wanted to point out that the above described construction scheme was very widely used among those builders - what was obviously not expected from your side.

    Apart from that: these Fasans are in fact super rare. The few I spotted all look a bit different - all of them more one offs than a regular production. And we both agree that they are worth to keep due to their nice sound.

    So: the bottom line should much better run: fellows, keep your eyes peeled for those!

  8. #132

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    "keep your eyes peeled for those" - There is a similiar one offered in the UK.

    Although beeing in a sad condition one picture shows nicely the lamination of the back plate:

    Vintage German Archtops-fasan_back-lamination-jpg

    The top looks solid to me (see the small cracks next to the waist)
    It´s really a pitty that guitars are sold in parts. The tailpiece offered too belongs for sure to this guitar. Fasan was so only West German maker who used engraved tailpieces on a regular basis (as far as I know)

    This will a rewarding project for somebody who is able to fix it.(no affiliation to the seller)

  9. #133

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    Here's one I found locally but have not purchased. Anybody have an idea of what it is? My guess would be a Huttl.

    It has a bit of a bow in the neck even strung up with 10-46 electric strings.
    So I think a board plating or reset and slight planing would be necessary. It has older brass frets.
    It comes with a interesting 'Ideal' brand pickup mounted on a chrome pickguard. The pickup slides back and forth on a separate metal plate.
    It has a very high quality looking ebony bridge with a bone saddle that is truncated on the treble side to accommodate the pickup/pickguard arrangement.
    I only have the pictures sent to me by the seller. They are small. The guitar measures 16.5" across the lower bout, I didn't get any other measurements. I suspect it's a laminate top but it's pretty loud even with the light electric strings.
    I wonder if it was refinshed black as the paint is on the binding of the treble side F-hole(you can see it in the pictures). Also there's a little overspray inside the guitar and there's a few other things which make me question the originality of the finish.






    Last edited by What now?; 11-11-2019 at 07:58 PM.

  10. #134

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    This a guitar I'm considering buying as a project. Does anybody have an idea as to what it is. It looks like it says 'Kirri' on the headstock but it looks like a Huttl to me.

    Any help would be appreciated

    It has a bow in the neck even strung up with 10-46 electric strings.
    So I think a fret board planing or reset and slight planing would be necessary. It has older brass frets.
    It comes with a interesting 'Ideal' brand pickup mounted on a chrome pickguard. The pickup slides back and forth on a separate metal plate.
    It has a high quality looking ebony bridge with a bone saddle that is truncated on the treble side to accommodate the pickup/pickguard arrangement.
    I only have the pictures sent to me by the seller. They are small. The guitar measures 16.5" across the lower bout, I didn't get any other measurements. I suspect it's a laminate top but it's pretty loud even with the light electric strings.
    I wonder if it was refinished black as the paint is on the binding of the treble side F-hole(you can see it in the pictures). Also there's a little overspray inside the guitar and there's a few other things which make me question the originality of the finish.










  11. #135

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    Hüttl

    Vintage German Archtops-huttl-archtop-jpg

    cheers

  12. #136

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    Thanks!
    The headstock and fretboard look very Huttl
    the bridge is identical
    and that one has paint on the treble F-hole binding that's under the pickguard too..hilarious!

    Does anyone know if these were all laminate instruments?

  13. #137

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    .010-.046 strings are pretty light. .012-.056 are closer to standard on archtops, and .013 sets are pretty common. Perhaps those heavier gauges would straighten the neck enough. Or perhaps not, impossible to say from way over here.

  14. #138

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    ops got the right idea...if it has bow with 10-46 than anything heavier is gonna make it bow worse...even more tension! sounds like he needs the neck to be clamped and straightened....dont know if theres any rod (even non adjustable) in neck...hopefully...otherwise even a reset and fret planing might not cure...it's the wooden neck thats bowed!!! not the angle it meets the body!

    try 08's!! hah

    luck

    cheers

  15. #139

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    Bowed neck to me means backbow, which can sometimes be removed with heavier strings. If there is too much relief, and no truss rod, not much can be done with strings.

  16. #140

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    i get you...but way op mentioned trying light strings, i assume he means too much bow...not too straight!!...if there's too much bow, lighter strings will lessen tension..tho cure is as i mentioned...clamp, heat and straighten neck..may work

    otherwise he just bought himself a slide guitar!

  17. #141

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    Okay to clarify, The guitar has too much relief with what I would think would be ridiculously light gauge strings on an acoustic.
    I'm betting the 'relief' is not a result of the strings it currently has on it and suspect it would still be there when tension is removed.
    I don't have a straigtening rig, though I know stewmac makes them (I think it's stewmac)I could probably build something and I do have a little luthier/craft iron but it seems to be a gamble/

  18. #142

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    exactly...why i said clamp, heat, and straighten is whats needed!

    08's was a bit of levity..tho the lighter the string the less tension is true..(in less extreme conditions)

    you don't need pricey kit...some clamps. sturdy boards...google it!!!

    sounds like you don't have much choice!

    good luck

    cheers

  19. #143

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    Well I actually do have a choice as I haven't purchase the guitar yet and humourously I just googled neck straightening before checking back her. It looks pretty straightforward and mighty be fun to try. I've done a few resets on my own 50s Gretschs (they did need it, loose necks), many fret jobs, rebinding and refinishing. Some neck straightening might be a good skill to add. I have an iron, many many clamps, luthier and otherwise ,and all the other bits needed. I have some luthier training. ( a year in a guitar building course too many years ago and some time spent working at Larrivee many years later)

    I appreciate the insight and I understood 08s were a joke though I understood the premise of greter/lesser tension

    Now I have to see if I can get it at a decent price, otherwise I won't be worth it.
    Any insight as to these levels of Huttls every had solid spruce tops? The one you posted looks it. BUt they made some very convincing laminates.

  20. #144

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    cool!!


    from pic i posted could very well be a pressed spruce top...even cheap harmony level guitars in 50's-60's had pressed solid spruce...so entirely possible

    be nice to know if there's some kind of rod running thu that neck tho...even tho non adjustable..like early martins...betters your odds

    sounds like you are up to the task (50's gretsch resets!!! of course!! hah)..keep us posted


    cheers

  21. #145

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    I wouldn't be adverse to a pressed top, they also made very very convincing spruce laminates. One Hofner I had (a 463S..an aesthetically beautiful guitar but acoustically dissapointing) looked solid if you examined the inside with a mirror, till I noticed this one spot right by the year stamp where the spruce laminate had a flaw exposing the inner laminate with contrary grain. Both my 52 Electro 2 and my 55 Convertible have very convincing fake spruce tops but both have pickup routes where you can see the edge grain. I might contact teh seller with an offer I think I can justify and maybe he'll accept.

  22. #146

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    Hi, this caught my eye and it is now mine.. it is in terrible condition, it is falling apart ! It has a label and date of 1948 and wondered if anyone could give me some more information about it?
    It seems to be made as per a classical instrument with no inside kerfing, it is all solid timber and well braced with much binding, fancy headstock, and a Staufer screw for the neck.
    The label is quite distinctive with an acorn and oak leaf - I think it is from or made by Migma ?
    many thanks
    Tim
    Attached Images Attached Images Vintage German Archtops-wholeguitar-jpg Vintage German Archtops-wholeguitar1-jpg Vintage German Archtops-label-jpg Vintage German Archtops-topinside-jpg Vintage German Archtops-neckjoint1-jpg Vintage German Archtops-backpin-jpg Vintage German Archtops-sides-jpg Vintage German Archtops-headstock-jpg 

  23. #147

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    Migma e.G. (it's an acronym for the builders' association + their location) - it's a sort of co-operative of musical instrument artisans. Yours was made in the communist half of Germany after the war.

  24. #148

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    I think that would make an attractive wall decoration. With enough money and work from a skilled luthier, it might become playable, and might or might not sound good.

  25. #149

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    Hello everyone,

    I am asking for help in identifying my guitar. I bought it over 55 years ago from a friend who was a jazz player and I learned to play on it as a young man.

    It is obviously not a Guild, the Bigsby tremelo arm was an add on, as were the pickups.

    There are no markings or labels anywhere that I can find. It has an adjustable neck by a square screw in the heel.

    Any ideas please?

    Thanks, Glen Alison (UK)

    Vintage German Archtops-img_1545-jpg

  26. #150

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    Looks like a cross between Luftwaffe and USAAF. German shapes, US hardware. I'm sure there's a bunch of experts with the full story.