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  1. #51

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    Heritage headstock function-f042a422-67cf-422a-967d-ae8fde0fe65a-jpeg
    Just throwing this piece of design work out there for discussion

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by customxke View Post
    Heritage headstock function-f042a422-67cf-422a-967d-ae8fde0fe65a-jpegJust throwing this piece of design work out there for discussion
    It's clearly a bottle opener. That's smart.

  4. #53

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    This risks getting political, and I don't mean to go in that direction. So I'll be cautious.

    I have owned one of the American Eagles, which now is BigMike's. I know the story on the design. I won't defend that design, just report.

    The American Eagle was conceived right around the time the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster happened. The Heritage builders wanted to do their ultimate guitar on the level of a Citation. The build quality was comparable when they began producing them. The time they spent building a single one fully justified its price being close to double that of a Golden Eagle. They made few.

    Few would argue with the fit and finish and the quality of woods. Aaron Cowles did the bracing and tuning. Maudie Moore did the inlays.

    What most people were taken back by was the Americana decor. The Heritage owners are/were salt of the earth Midwestern blue collar patriots. The liberty bell tailpiece cost them over $500 wholesale. The abalone inlays were also expensive. They held nothing back on this model. Check these pics out. Heritage American Eagle NOS 1993 Natural, reg. #15 | Reverb

    The problem was that most jazz musicians didn't like the design. Truthfully, it was too much for me. But after a while I got used to it. A while after that it would make me smile every time I saw it. The kitsch factor vanished as soon as I played it.

    I hadn't thought about opening beer bottles with the Liberty Bell. Somehow I don't think Samuel Adams would mind.
    MG

  5. #54

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    Definitely proves my point, about Poor Aesthetic choices made by the old guard at Heritage.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    Definitely proves my point, about Poor Aesthetic choices made by the old guard at Heritage.
    Point taken.

    Counterpoint below:


  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post
    Point taken.

    Counterpoint below:

    I am swayed by the counterpoint. That is a collection of beautiful guitars.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  8. #57

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  9. #58

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    At a time when so many producers of guitars try to get as close to the Gibson aethetic as possible, this one (the one I would be most interested in by far), decides to mate Gibson and an Aria Pro II.
    Who knows what could have been?

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    I don't like my friend's wife but I would never call her a sweathog! She's quite fetching really but don't covet thy neighbour's wife...the nuns taught me that.

    The guys who break into paroxysms of delight over the "shading" of the bursts, the flame curly figuredness of the maple, the silking of the spruce, the iridescence of the mother of pearl/abalone, the layers of binding are the same ones who turn around all of a sudden, and say, oh yeah, the looks of the Heritage headstock don't matter...

    A hypocrite is a hypocrite is a hypocrite.
    Man don’t you think “hypocrite” is a little...harsh?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  11. #60

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    They’re just guitars boys.

  12. #61

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    I understand the typical jazz guy's attitude about the Heritage American Eagle. OTOH, I immediately resonated with the builder's empathy/tribute vis-a-vis the NASA tragedy. So, I always dug the AE.

  13. #62

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    I will admit those are some good looking guitars.Far better than most of the older Heritage guitars I've seen without headstock binding and pointy pick guards.

  14. #63

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    The Heritage headstocks do look better with some binding and I prefer the wider ones.

    When I first became a fan I did not like the pointy pick guards. Over time I have developed a fondness for them and I wish that some of my 5 Heritages had one.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach5G View Post
    They’re just guitars boys.
    Jim Hall agrees with you:

    “I know it’s a guitar when I see it. That’s about it. I have very little connection to the actual instrument. When traveling, I’ve gotten to the point where I just check the electric thing through—I have a super-case—because it’s gotten so complicated traveling. And it’s disappeared a couple of times overnight. So I just sort of try and separate myself from it; it’s a piece of wood—I can get another guitar. It’s not my dog or my wife.”
    -----------------------------------

    "The instrument keeps me humble. Sometimes I pick it up and it seems to say, "No, you can't play today." I keep at it anyway, though." Jim Hall

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    This risks getting political, and I don't mean to go in that direction. So I'll be cautious.

    I have owned one of the American Eagles, which now is BigMike's. I know the story on the design. I won't defend that design, just report.

    The American Eagle was conceived right around the time the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster happened. The Heritage builders wanted to do their ultimate guitar on the level of a Citation. The build quality was comparable when they began producing them. The time they spent building a single one fully justified its price being close to double that of a Golden Eagle. They made few.

    Few would argue with the fit and finish and the quality of woods. Aaron Cowles did the bracing and tuning. Maudie Moore did the inlays.

    What most people were taken back by was the Americana decor. The Heritage owners are/were salt of the earth Midwestern blue collar patriots. The liberty bell tailpiece cost them over $500 wholesale. The abalone inlays were also expensive. They held nothing back on this model. Check these pics out. Heritage American Eagle NOS 1993 Natural, reg. #15 | Reverb

    The problem was that most jazz musicians didn't like the design. Truthfully, it was too much for me. But after a while I got used to it. A while after that it would make me smile every time I saw it. The kitsch factor vanished as soon as I played it.

    I hadn't thought about opening beer bottles with the Liberty Bell. Somehow I don't think Samuel Adams would mind.
    First, let me echo your remarks on not getting political. There are some things for which my country (ands yours) may be criticized. The Liberty Bell and the memorialization of the Space Shuttle Columbia are for sure not two of them. I would be proud to have one of those beauties, and play it in public.

    In examining the photos, I like the way the LB acts as a mirror. It's like you get out of something what you put into it... cool.
    Best regards, k

  17. #66

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    I definitely appreciate Jim Hall's perspective on his tool of trade. But I'm a little bit more attached to my tools a bit more than he was.
    But I do see the point of being consumed with chasing gear as almost important as the music.

    I think we are definitely living in the age of consumerism. And that it's become too much! Unfortunately I'm guilty as hell!

  18. #67

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    I wonder if the Heritage headstock will still generate long threads in 2040. By then, most players will have grown up in a world with it and not even notice it.

    Imagine if a new company called Martin formed and was hawking this headstock? I've seen it a million times and never gave it a moment's thought.


    Heritage headstock function-martin-dss-17-front-headstock-close-jpg
    MG

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    I wonder if the Heritage headstock will still generate long threads in 2040. By then, most players will have grown up in a world with it and not even notice it.
    Sad to say, but from my perspective, most players - especially younger ones have never heard of heritage. I doubt it will be a topic of much contention as most players won't know or care.
    Anyway, the Typical Martin headstock is a great example of how I feel about these things. I have come to realize that if the headstock is wider at the end compared to at the nut, then it is possible that It may be designed in such a way that I might appreciate.
    If however it is more narrow at the end than at the nut, then (with very few exceptions), I do not care for it.
    So for example in acoustic world, Martin is nohing great but not any issue, but Seagull I have to pass.

  20. #69

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    what's cool about my heritage eagle classic is not just that the headstock is nice and big, and the strings run nice and straight over the nut - it is also that:

    - its 20.5'' long not 21''
    - its 3'' deep not 3 3/8''
    - its very heavy (so amplifies a certain way etc.)
    - the fretboard geometry and fretwork are heavenly
    - the seth lover pickups are fab (much nicer than any of the classic 57's i've played in recent gibson guitars)


    but i think i didn't even consider heritage until i saw a guitar from them that did not remind me (at least not immediately) of cowboys and horses and leather trousers (which i know a lot of people like - but its not my jazz bag)

    it amazes me - now that i'm getting so much out of this new heritage guitar - that i could have been so concerned about style that this brand has been invisible to me for 30 years. (they did just start marketing in Europe of course etc. etc.)

    i got one because it was about half the price of the gibson alternative - and nothing about the look of it put me off. i appreciate the relatively austere aesthetic - which i think has emerged gradually in the last ten years or so (see e.g. pictures of eagle classic on music zoo). The gibson look, you might say, is an urban look (the connection with art deco is preserved across the range, however subtly - i think). before they got their latest designs together the heritage look (at least with their archtops) was a rural look - and i don't think that sells many jazz guitars.

    suffice it to say that if it had an eagle on it anywhere i would not have been able to buy it. and that could have caused me a lot of bother - pushing me towards a gibson alternative that would have required guitar-over-spend (gos) with all its awful consequences....(not least being landed with a guitar that's just a wee bit too big for me). so i'm very glad they made themselves visible to me as a brand by gradually getting away from a cowboy western heritage thing that kept me out of the party. (not that there's anything wrong with a cowboy western heritage thing of course - its just that it doesn't entirely overlap with my be-bop, mainstream jazz, thing.)

    what matters - i'm saying - is that heritage have a full size spruce/maple jazz archtop at a non-gibson price - that has a range of design features that could easily lead you to prefer it over the gibson (they don't do a solid-carved Tal).

    will all that going on i have barely noticed the bloody headstock

  21. #70

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    Some of you know that Seth Lover himself was unhappy with what Gibson's marketing and design guys did to his namesake pickup. They wanted metal pickup covers. They did this with some P-90s and all of the humbuckers. Seth was adamant that it blocked some of the airy frequencies. Seth lost that argument.

    Loud guitarists rediscovered this in the 60s and took off the metal covers.

    My point is that form and function can be competitive.



    MG

  22. #71

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    One of the best Deals I ever did with Marty was scoring that American Eagle. Plugged in with the amplified volume the same as the acoustic volume there is this wonderful swirly sound inside the guitar that I’ve only heard on th AE and my Unity’s. As a veteran coming from a long line of veterans I’m Proud the AE displays so much Americana. If you played it it would immediately grow on you. And also owning a Citation I agree, the woods, fit, finish is on a par with my Citation.

    The next day when I was checking out of the hotel I had to wait for my companions. I sat near the desk and one of the clerks asked me what the guitar was. I told them to come over and took it out and played it a little, a lot of the folks have relatives that work at Heritage and the pride these kids feel for Heritage is palpable. My American Eagle is a stunning guitar.

    Those who diss the AE or headstock shape are missing out. All power to ya though.

    Big







    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    This risks getting political, and I don't mean to go in that direction. So I'll be cautious.

    I have owned one of the American Eagles, which now is BigMike's. I know the story on the design. I won't defend that design, just report.

    The American Eagle was conceived right around the time the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster happened. The Heritage builders wanted to do their ultimate guitar on the level of a Citation. The build quality was comparable when they began producing them. The time they spent building a single one fully justified its price being close to double that of a Golden Eagle. They made few.

    Few would argue with the fit and finish and the quality of woods. Aaron Cowles did the bracing and tuning. Maudie Moore did the inlays.

    What most people were taken back by was the Americana decor. The Heritage owners are/were salt of the earth Midwestern blue collar patriots. The liberty bell tailpiece cost them over $500 wholesale. The abalone inlays were also expensive. They held nothing back on this model. Check these pics out. Heritage American Eagle NOS 1993 Natural, reg. #15 | Reverb

    The problem was that most jazz musicians didn't like the design. Truthfully, it was too much for me. But after a while I got used to it. A while after that it would make me smile every time I saw it. The kitsch factor vanished as soon as I played it.

    I hadn't thought about opening beer bottles with the Liberty Bell. Somehow I don't think Samuel Adams would mind.
    Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 10-22-2019 at 07:18 PM.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    Some of you know that Seth Lover himself was unhappy with what Gibson's marketing and design guys did to his namesake pickup. They wanted metal pickup covers. They did this with some P-90s and all of the humbuckers. Seth was adamant that it blocked some of the airy frequencies. Seth lost that argument.
    I was under the understanding that he wanted stainless steel, but it was too hard to work with, and the ”marketing guys” changes that bothered him were the addition of adjustable pole pieces.

  24. #73

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    The first time I ever heard that swirling sound you speak of Mikey was when was sitting on Patrick’s couch, playing the same 18” Unity you speak of. Unlike anything else I had ever experienced. The next time I heard it was with the 18” HJS with a set of brand new Thomastik George Bensons.
    We’ve had some nice ones guys.
    JD

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by customxke View Post
    I was under the understanding that he wanted stainless steel, but it was too hard to work with, and the ”marketing guys” changes that bothered him were the addition of adjustable pole pieces.
    Gold and chrome P90 covers are easily available. They might look good but are not frequency transparent.

    Here is an interview with Seth Lover. Nickle silver has the least effect on tone and blocks some ambient electrical interference. Gold has a stronger effect on tone. Plastic has no effect on tone but also does not shield ambient electrical interference. It's a good read.


    Interview: Seth Lover on Inventing the PAF Humbucker and | Reverb News


    This is from MojoTone:

    Do covers affect the tone of a pickup?



    The type of metal cover you choose can have a significant affect on the sound of your pickup. Generally metal covers will knock some of the highs off, making the pickup sound warmer or darker, while plastic covers will have no effect at all. It is generally found that the most magnetically transparent metal cover available is high quality nickel silver.

    All of the metal covers available at Mojotone are made from pure nickel silver, with the only exception being the plating. The cover itself is nickel silver but the plating is ferromagnetic and will have a slight affect, as it acts as a very thin magnetic shield.
    MG

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    It's like bumping into your granny at a bondage club.
    We need more information here ... or maybe not ...

  27. #76

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    I just want to contribute that I'm not fond of florentine cutaways ...

  28. #77

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    It was ugly when i saw a friend of mine's Sweet Sixteen 29 years ago, and it's still ugly. And that particular guitar he had sounded like crap.

  29. #78

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    From what I can see, those Heritage headstocks are pretty close to the look that Lloyd Loar used when he originated the archtop f-hole guitar.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    It was ugly when i saw a friend of mine's Sweet Sixteen 29 years ago, and it's still ugly. And that particular guitar he had sounded like crap.
    Heritage critiques: They just never get old!


    Here's a concert with Keith Urban and Frankie Ballard. Keith gets his Fender taken away and is forced to play a Heritage. Keith looks disgusted with the instrument. Not!


    MG

  31. #80

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    Heritage headstock function-img_2397_34961586-4373-4d13-805d-8a144c5344da_large-jpg

    I have a Dean Palomino... it is cheap and it's Chinese production. But of all the archtops I had I liked the headstock disign the best.
    Except classic Gibson which is very well balanced solution in my opinion.