Nylon Washers under Mounted Pickup Rings

[arnie65]

Almost every alteration or component change is "mostly noticeable to the player." From the pickups and amp to the strings and pick to where you set your volume and tone (if applicable). That's why Rich makes the alteration- it makes a difference to him. Which alteration to a guitar does an audience notice? Which change is mostly noticeable to the audience and not the player?

I suppose I don't know what you mean by a "well built instrument." I only own two archtops: a Guild A-150 Savoy- nice but not fancy schmancy- and now a Samick JZ-2- a cheap, decent guitar. I consider both to be well built and yet both have been improved by various small alterations. Any little trick I can use to improve the sound or performance of my modest guitars is welcome. Plus, this one cost less than five bucks and took less than five minutes.

I'm simply stating (to re-phrase) that a some of changes or modifications to archtops can be perceived by the listener, or noticed in a recording, but in my opinion, this is not one of them. It is a modification that can mostly be perceived by the player. I've tried it myself, and did noticed the top a bit more airy, but didn't think anyone else would notice. I've been following Rich Severson for many years, and have a tremendous amount of respect for what he's done for the jazz guitar community at large, not to mention the caliber of player he is. So my comment is not a criticism of Rich or his methodology on improving an archtop's tonal qualities. Is merely an observation and a personal opinion, not that I need to explain myself.... You're certainly free to try any trick or hack you believe will improve your instrument's performance and/or tone.



Cheers,
Arnie...

[Marty Grass]

I've had the privilege of talking to Ren Wall quite a few times at Heritage. He's a nice and clever guy. I also was over at his dad's house when I was a kid. His dad had a local TV show with a band, and he worked at Gibson.

The video shows some of Ren's cleverness. But there is much more. He told me that once he thought neck twist may arise from uneven string tension. He got the idea of making string sets in which every string had the same tension. He put varying weights on different strings so that the weights worked out to be the same on each string when at pitch. GHS, which was in Battle Creek, not far from Kalamazoo, made the "balanced" string sets for Gibson. I have no idea if that made any difference about neck twist, but at least he was thinking. https://www.daddario.com/the-lesson-...htly%20varied.

He came up with fine tuners on the tailpiece. He also made the Heritage Rendal Wall (HRW) pickup. The process is a secret, but almost certainly he used standard Schaller pickups frozen in dry ice. They do sound different, no doubt, and I like them on archtops. Kenny Burrell also did. Other pickup maker have done this with their pickups, too.

The last thing I'll mention is the 4 point mount. This involves putting small brass washers under the pickup bezel (mount, surrounds). This focuses the weight of the pickup onto the four corners, not across a larger area of the top. Of course, the weight of the pickup plus the washers is still on the top. The hope is that the top can vibrate more freely without pressure from the entire sides of the bezel pushing down. You can do this at home with an order of small brass washers. It's a couple of bucks for 100 from Amazon. I asked him a couple of times whether it really makes a difference. Both times he smiled and said people tell him it does. I can't tell. I can't be sure I hear a difference. I certainly am free to imagine one though. Here is an old thread that shows the 4 point mount.

Heritage Super Eagle

I don't know if nylon washers would be different.

[Marty Grass]

[sgosnell]

I decided to try that on my Epi ES-175, using rubber grommets, and it didn't work. The pickup ring was thick but hollow, and even two stacked grommets went inside and were just loose. Bigger might have worked, but I didn't have them. Metal washers might, but I didn't have any wide enough. I just abandoned the effort.

[Marty Grass]

Here they are. This packet will elevate 25 pickups, and they are easy to install. Do they make a difference? It probably makes some difference subtley. Is it an improvement? I can't tell.

Small Parts Brass Flat Washer, Plain Finish, No. 3 Screw Size, 0.1" ID, 1/4" OD, 0.02" Thick (Pack of 100): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

[sgosnell]

If I can't use out-of-the drawer parts on hand, it's not worth the trouble or expense to me. I'll buy what is needed for most things, but not this.

[JCat]

Guitars are different. Pickup rings are different.

Exhibit 1 Gibson:

Exhibit 2 PRS:

Anyone who likes to test this experiment should understand that any washer that lifts the pickup ring obviously lifts the entire pickup assembly including the pickup itself closer to the strings. That's obviously going to make a difference, unless compensated by lowering the pickups inside the rings a corresponding distance...

Theory:
The pickup is already suspended inside the ring by spring loaded height adjustment screws.
An unpotted humbucker with a cover is resonant in itself. It's microphonic and will pickup your voice if you talk to it.
Resonance makes the pickup vibrate inside the ring. If the pickup cover touches the inside of the ring, sometimes there's acoustic buzzing that in some situations could dampen sustain. If the pickups are un-potted the buzzing could be picked up also by the amplified signal.
There are ways to adjust the spring assembly so that the pickup doesn't buzz, for example by carefully bending the tabs.
If you would replace the springs by stiff silicon tubing, you are effectively going to dampen the pickups inside the rings. Similarly, if you would kill pickup vibration by wedging a pick or similar between the pickup cover and the inside of the ring, you would dampen the pickup. Chances are this will affect the acoustic sound as well as the amplified sound to some degree.
A pickup ring is coupled to the top. If you would change its coupling, e.g by raising it with rubber washers, this will dampen pickup vibrations. For better or worse, if you hear any difference at all.

[Cunamara]

As an experiment, I did this with some small, thin nylon washers on my Gibson ES-175. The pickup rings are now about .01" above the top, about the thickness of a skinny high E string. You have to look close to see it and these particular washers do not protrude out from under the pickup ring, so it seems pretty subtle visually.

The tonal difference is not strongly pronounced, but single notes have a clearer, more singing tone to them than previously (I did not change strings). The "thunk" that some people like to get out of the ES-175 is lessened; since I don't particularly want to have that sound myself, that works for me. So far I like it.

[Herbie]

I have to search some washers and test this.

One reason to the (possibly) better amplified sound with washers might be a result of the pickup being now closer to the strings!

[Cunamara]

It certainly stands to reason that moving the pickup closer to the string is going to change the tonality a little bit. In my case, it's 100th of an inch so I'm not sure how significant that is. I suppose I could back off on the adjuster screws a 16th turn and see what effect that has. Acoustically I noticed a little bit of a difference, the top seeming to vibrate a bit more freely and the acoustic sound being just a bit louder.

Or am I hearing what I want to hear? Am I unconsciously playing the instrument differently than before? Is this all just psychoacoustics? After all, the mass of the pickups is still coupled to the top through the screws. Does it actually make any difference if there is a tiny gap between the bottom edge of the pickup ring and the top?

[Jx30510]

Some people think that kind of little tweaking on an electric guitar does nothing. I found the contrary. Any little modification, the better the guitar the more you'll notice it, will affect (the sound, resonnance playability..).
I'm sure Rich knows a thing about guitars, and that he wouldn't share that tweak if it wasn't effective.
Recentlly I added a thumbwheel on the tunomatic of my Eastman Juliet.. you know, the little roller thing to adjust the height of the bridge. I added one that is screwed tight against the body wood, the second still doing what it's made for.
The Juliet has a Bigsby, and the whole bridge was rocking a lot.. this solved the problem, and the sound is so much better, notes sustain better, the playability is optimized..
And most important the guitar stays in tune a lot better.. I read somewhere "if you want your guitar to stay in tune with a Bigsby, the bridge must be rocking while using the arm.." Well I found the exact contrary !
The Juliet is a very high quality guitar, and in my experience these kind of small changes can go a long way on a good guitar. But you have to be careful because you can loose the personality of a guitar very quickly with too much "tweaks", and sometimes going backwards can be tricky..
And experienced guitarist must know, at a certain point, how to tweak his instruments. To me it's what makes a musician totaly bond with his instruments. A lot of masters where tweakers

[JCat]

After all, the mass of the pickups is still coupled to the top through the screws. Does it actually make any difference if there is a tiny gap between the bottom edge of the pickup ring and the top?

It's plausible there could be a difference. I remember years ago there was a guy on some guitar forum that found out that if he loosened one of the four screws in the PU ring there was a change in sound. His guitar was a solid body...

The coupling obviously depends on the material and shape of the ring (some people go to great length finding the right plastics ). In your experiment it also depends on the material of the washers. Rubber or silicon would dampen more than hard plastics.

Here's another simple test one could attempt: Just loosen all four screws half a turn or so...