Attenuators

**Doug B** · 10-30-2019, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Not faster than without the attenuator at the same volume settings.

That makes sense, thanks.

**lawson-stone** · 10-30-2019, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Not faster than without the attenuator at the same volume settings.

Also, the "drain" on the amp is more on the output transformer than on the output tubes. If you run the amp without the speaker, the output transformer is what burns out. So the attenuator's real job is to keep the output transformer correctly loaded so it functions correctly, while then reducing the signal to the speaker and providing a good line level signal out. That's why they are called "power soaks" because they soak up the output and give the transformer the right resistance load.

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Also, the "drain" on the amp is more on the output transformer than on the output tubes. If you run the amp without the speaker, the output transformer is what burns out. So the attenuator's real job is to keep the output transformer correctly loaded so it functions correctly, while then reducing the signal to the speaker and providing a good line level signal out. That's why they are called "power soaks" because they soak up the output and give the transformer the right resistance load.

Yes a tube amp must at all times be connected to a load.

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 04:47 PM

there are different types of attenuators..the basic passive model (like the beringer made- bugera) just passes the power into an internal heat sink....your tubes are working hard...but the power to the speaker is recircuited..and yes it takes its toll on tubes...and the attentenuator itself could overheat & fail

cheers

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

there are different types of attenuators..the basic passive model (like the beringer made- bugera) just passes the power into an internal heat sink....your tubes are working hard...but the power to the speaker is recircuited..and yes it takes its toll on tubes...and the attentenuator itself could overheat & fail

cheers

Why would they be working harder than when they are just connected to the speaker?

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 05:08 PM

because you have the amp volume on 8-10, but are getting a low decibel result...

to get the same decibel result without the attenuator the tubes would be running at amp volume around 2!

be like gunning your amp all the time...that burns thru tubes...and can overheat amp components

in the rock era when bands kept their stacks on 9-10 volume levels, amps actually caught fire!!!

you are doing the same thing with a passive attenuator...you just arent killing your hearing

cheers

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

because you have the amp volume on 8-10, but are getting a low decibel result...

to get the same decibel result without the attenuator the tubes would be running at amp volume around 2!

be like gunning your amp all the time...that burns thru tubes...and can overheat amp components

in the rock era when bands kept their stacks on 9-10 volume levels, amps actually caught fire!!!

you are doing the same thing with a passive attenuator...you just arent killing your hearing

cheers

Yes, I get that. My understanding of the question earlier was if attenuators put extra burden on the tubes. Of course pushing the amp will reduce the life of the tubes and attenuators can't do magic.
In other words the tubes get the same amount of wear and tear whether the amp is connected to speakers or an attenuator for the same power usage.

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 05:23 PM

???
pushing the amp is why you use an attenuator!!!..thats its sole purpose!! to allow you to "blast" your amp at bedroom level volumes..so in my book yes using a passive attenuator is responsible for shortened tube life!! and possibly worse!

thats why active attenuators are big $$$

cheers

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

???
pushing the amp is why you use an attenuator!!!..thats its sole purpose!! to allow you to "blast" your amp at bedroom level volumes..so in my book yes using a passive attenuator is responsible for shortened tube life!! and possibly worse!

thats why active attenuators are big $$$

cheers

So active attenuators do not shorten tube life when amp is pushed?

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 05:33 PM

good info-

All About… Attenuators - Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

cheers

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

good info-

All About… Attenuators - Guitar.com | All Things Guitar

cheers

I actually already read that article. It doesn't say anything about passive attenuators shortening tube life more than active ones. Did I miss it?

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 05:50 PM

I mean reactive attenuators are more expensive because they are designed to more closely mimic speaker response. Some people prefer them because they believe they provide more realistic attenuation. But in terms of the potential burden on the amp, I've read quite varied opinions. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus and both types of attenuators are considered safe barring anecdotal, hear-say evidence.

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 05:54 PM

anytime you run your tube amp at full or near full volume for extended lengths of time (repeatedly) you can run into problems!..why low power amps have become so popular these days!!! and modelers!

when a power tube goes south it takes out the protective screen resistor and usually shorts the fuse...but if the resistor is off spec or the fuse is not up to task, lots of components in the circuit can fry...even transformers..its a foul smelling situation! hah

i like to lessen the possibilty of failure...not multiply ...

luck

cheers

**lawson-stone** · 10-30-2019, 08:52 PM

Actually the attenuator is not merely to "blast" the amp. Anytime you want to have the amp's full character but want to control the volume an attenuator can be useful. Or if you are recording direct or performing direct to FoH and want less volume on stage/in studio, an attenuator is a good tool.

**neatomic** · 10-30-2019, 09:09 PM

the speaker operating at its natural potential is essential to the amps "full character"...once you mess with that..the equation is thrown off!!

attenuators are nothing new...i fooled with em on tube amps in the 80's...and if you like good for you...but they do tax your amp tubes with prolonged use..especially with todays sub par tubes...be aware

and cheapo versions with a buck fifty worth of iffy parts on your expensive tube amp may fail easily and leave you up the creek

come back in a years time

luck

cheers

**Tal_175** · 10-30-2019, 09:20 PM

Attenuators allow one to use their amp at it's sweet spot whatever that may be for a player.
If you're not going to turn the volume of your amp to 5 so that your tubes will last longer, may be tube amps aren't for you

**lawson-stone** · 10-31-2019, 10:19 AM

This is a recording using the Bugera PS-1 Power Soak and a Fender Princeton Reverb Re-Issue. The PS-1 is between the speaker-output and the speaker itself. PS-1 XLR to a PreSonus AudioBox iTwo. Also, a Shure SM57 microphone on the cabinet turned up with the attenuator to about 40% on the dial, also into the PreSonus, USB to MacBook Pro and recorded on QuickTime Player, edited in ScreenFlow.

The Left channel is the XLR output from the PS-1. The Right channel is the SM57. Other than equalizing the volumes a little (they were already close) I've done nothing else.

The backing track is center-panned. I then repeat the guitar track a second time, without the backing track.

Hope this helps anyone wanting to evaluate the utility of the PS-1 for recording.

**christianm77** · 10-31-2019, 02:06 PM

I thought this sounded really good, and I would like to give it a try!

**lawson-stone** · 10-31-2019, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I thought this sounded really good, and I would like to give it a try!

I confess to being quite uexpectedly impressed. The Direct line really nailed the sound. The mic on the (attenuated!) speaker also sounded way better than I expected.

I don't need the attenuator for playing over-driven at low volumes, but the PRRI does develop a certain quality at about 5 (volume) that can be too loud for recording where I have to practice. Being able to use the attenuator to get the line out is really convenient.

**Tal_175** · 10-31-2019, 02:26 PM

Also note that, although the amp must be connected to PS-1 at all times, PS-1 doesn't need to be connected to a speaker. So you can use it in quiet stage situations or when you want to only hear it through monitors/headphones when recording.

**lawson-stone** · 10-31-2019, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Also note that, although the amp must be connected to PS-1 at all times, PS-1 doesn't need to be connected to a speaker. So you can use it in quiet stage situations or when you want to only hear it through monitors/headphones when recording.

Right you are. The amp has to be connected to the appropriate load. I think neatomic's cautions above are also worth bearing in mind. I don't plan to keep my Princeton or Silvertone connected to the PS-1 all the time. Only when I want to record direct, which is increasingly how I like to record anyhow. Otherwise, speakers.

**citizenk74** · 10-31-2019, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

the speaker operating at its natural potential is essential to the amps "full character"...once you mess with that..the equation is thrown off!!

attenuators are nothing new...i fooled with em on tube amps in the 80's...and if you like good for you...but they do tax your amp tubes with prolonged use..especially with todays sub par tubes...be aware

and cheapo versions with a buck fifty worth of iffy parts on your expensive tube amp may fail easily and leave you up the creek

come back in a years time

luck

cheers

Absolutely correct! I consider the tradeoff worth it and much better that developing ear fatigue or worse playing at higher than necessary levels. Periodic visits to the Amp Vet are a must!

**lawson-stone** · 11-01-2019, 09:37 AM

Here's another demo of the Bugera PS1 Power Soak, this time with my 1965 (or so) Silvertone 1484. I have intentionally "cranked" the amp a bit more than normal to get some break up. I actually don't like this amp cranked so high, but it's also possible that this amp has some innards that are not in premium working order. The tubes are good... I don't know about the rest! It has s 3 prong plug but I don't know if any caps or resistors have been upgraded, and the transformers are definitely stock.

For those that don't know, the Silvertone 1484 uses 2 6L6 power tubes and was advertised nominally at 40 watts or so. It had a fantastic (I think) vibrato/tremolo (whatever) and probably the worst reverb every installed on any amp in the universe. The reverb is so bad it's actually worth duplicating in a pedal as an effect. It shipped with a head and a 2x12 cab that had a space for the head to be transported in the cab. I don't have the cab, but play it either through the 2x10 speakers of my Yamaha G100-210 or through a 12" 4 Ohm speaker rated at 100 watts. It sounds pretty good either way, though I wouldn't gig with it without giving it a complete upgrade inside where needed. Someday I'd like to do that.

The reverb on these is horrible so this is recorded dry, no reverb. XLR direct from the PS1 to the PreSonus AudioBox iTwo, from there to my MacBook Pro with Quicktime. The guitar is alone on the Left channel. The solo is Jimmy Raney's "Blues for Wes" from the Aebersold set.

I don't post all these clips to showcase my playing, though I enjoy doing it. I post it because we all wonder about these various pieces of gear and the demos online are normally rock and Strat/Tele oriented, not jazz archtops and warm/clean. So I"m trying to help a little as folks ponder these.

**Tal_175** · 11-01-2019, 10:15 AM

When you play chords lightly, the breakup sounds really good in this setup, like towards the very end. I guess dynamics become something to experiment with when playing on the verge of breakup. Amp becomes another expressive dimension like blues/soul singers' voice getting hoarse when they sing louder. I could hear you were interacting with the amp that way at times. I would overdrive the amp a bit less normally for that effect however.