The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis D
    ......Sorry, but Gibson was founded on mandolins and banjos, and to their credit, they did change production focus once the market dictated it.
    Gibson kept making both after guitars became the focus....

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Julian Lage, Gilad Hekselman, etc., converting to Teles isn't going to help the case for Gibson investing in equipment and specialized personnel to make archtops, either. The Les Paul has long been the brand's bread and butter- Jimmy Page and Slash are more influential in today's buying market than Johnny Smith or Wes Montgomery. But who knows, jazz may yet stage a resurgence among younger musicians and audiences and archtops may come back into demand; weirder things have happened.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Blancpain is painful when mispronounced.
    "blanc" + "pain" = "white bread." Is that the intention of the branding?

    Thanks heavens I am perfectly happy with my watch that cost under $100 on sale 25 years ago. To paraphrase the old proverb, a man with a watch knows what time it is- a man with two is never sure.

  5. #29

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    So will Gibson start making computers and video games? Maybe Henry J wasn't so crazy with his Firebird X,LOL!

  6. #30

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    Jeez! Jabs! Come to Maui and you’ll save money! Wear a sundial with a wrist strap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    I should be thrilled by the anticipated run-up in values of my small collection but I am not. I would like see the tradition continue. It would be a sad day when nobody knows how to make them. With photographic and cinematic film, Polaroid media, when they went away photo artists lost a medium of expression.

    Skills when not passed down are soon forgotten and lost. Taste is often acquired and then passed down. If you do not supply them, the taste for them does not even get started.

    I was pootling around town checking out the many Rolex dealers in my small place. All the Yachtmasters, GMTs, Daytonas, Submariners, Sea Dwellers were sold out. I put myself on the waiting list and the dealer laughed. I must be the 100th person in line for a Yachtmaster 42 Platinum. He humoured me by saying that sometimes people do drop out. He would like to get more but Rolex could not supply them fast enough. Tudors and Omegas are aplenty. As are the other high-faluting Swiss marques with the unpronounceable names that show up a rube. Blancpain is painful when mispronounced.

    The proper marketing model is not Levi-Strauss; it is Rolex. There are guys who buy $10 000 to $20 000 guitars to play cowboy chords. You got to create that desire. They just want to be seen with "the best".

    It is starting to look like the Second Coming of Norlin. You are all going to miss Henry J..

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Gibson kept making both after guitars became the focus....
    technically yes, but mandolin and banjo sales suffered a steep drop in production once the L-5 took hold and especially once the lower line models were introduced as many couldn't afford the $275 for an L-5.
    the introduction of the F-5 mandolin was very late as mandolin sales had already started to decline, there's not a lot of post 20's mandolins and banjos.

  8. #32

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    Wildwood Guitars sold a lot of Gibson Archtops, darned nice ones too, in the run up to Gibson's chapter 11. They were never the "fly off the shelves" models anyway. They can sell again.

    Eric Clapton was right, we need new guitar heroes for the kids to get excited about.

    And we need (or Gibson needs) some young stars to appear on stage with fancy bright colored L5s. Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber are probably too far over the hill now, so somebody else. And don't forget the country fan base.

    The music is critical, as Clapton said, but imagery drives purchasing decisions too.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
    You are describing marketing of Veblen goods which is successfully done with Luxury goods.
    Veblen?

  10. #34

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    Some of Gibson choices are questionables, an example, Why launching an almost perfect Natural Limited Sg 2016, with 2 p90's, a classical C rounded neck, an affordable $1000 price, with an almost unplayable 39mm nut width (1.55 I think) ?? Why ? To preserve standard SG sellings ? So do nothing rather than disappoint your customers.
    If tomorrow you release a VOS L5, do you think making pink the only available color would be a good choice ? Perhaps a Floyd rose too ?

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBPhx
    Veblen?
    This may help...

    Veblen Good Definition

  12. #36

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    Sometimes a company will have halo products that are not profitable but increase the brand's standing. Since we're not seeing much interest in archtops, Gibson is more likely to have overpriced Les Paul's than an archtop. Things change and music has changed a lot.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Just a beginning to an eventual slow, sad end.

    The archtops aren't coming back guys. Ain't a single young gun in jazz playing a new Gibson. Not one.
    That's not unexpected with the asking prices. 10k for a gigging guitar..? Gibson itself put themselves outside a musicians perspective. Hope they enjoy their lifestyle guitars!

  14. #38

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    Guitar is not very important in the 21st century, it's glory days are over.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    There is no reason that Gibson cannot do both, honoring their past while at the same time adapting to the needs of the future.
    I totally agree. As far as Gibson marketing niche (Veblen--I learned a new word today) products, the demands of high-end buyers and collectors is highly fickle. Rolex today, Omega or Tissot tomorrow.

    OTOH, I don't think the archtop is dead. There are tons of younger artists playing archies all the time...just recently I have seen Guy Clarke Jr, Sturgill Simpson, Jeff Tweedy, and many others playing various archtops. Bob Weir plays an archtop for gosh sake.

    What's needed is focusing the marketing on such artists and making models that the average player can actually afford. There hasn't been a full-bodied Gibson archtop at a player's price for many years (Epiphone excluded). The 175 started out as a midlevel alternative that cost, yes, $175, which should cost about 10X that amount adjusted for inflation alone.

    The 135--my favorite model--is a great guitar that was always affordable and could be played in any genre of music, also played by some well-known artists. However, it's been out of production for almost 2 decades.

    I think that focusing on collectors and rich people is not a recipe for success in the mass-market guitar business though.

  16. #40

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    i'm interested in how this will affect gibson owned- epiphone...asian made archtops..the elitist, inspired by and premium archtops do pretty well...

    i still think asian made gibson branded archtops would work...maybe not for die hards around here, but for many younger or less historically motivated folk out there

    gretsch and guild did it with good results..some players even prefer modern gretsches to the brooklyn mades

    cheers

    ps- if the present owners don't consider it, someone else will down the line

  17. #41

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    So.. the local version of Gibson 'honoring their past' is making unprofitable products old jazz guys want them to make? Nope. I think they should make tenor guitars. And banjos. And mando-this and thats. Yes. Those.

  18. #42

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    I don't think they're unprofitable, especially now. Available on order only, price firm.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatayoyo
    A Byrdland with G Force tuning system ? The best of both worlds...
    I just threw up in my mouth a little bit...

  20. #44

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    It used to be one was expected to know how to properly tune a guitar.
    Especially by the time you were good enough to play and own a Byrdland.

    But with all of immediate gratification needs required for the average consumers I can understand how self tuning guitars came into .being

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBPhx
    Veblen?
    I read this as vegan in my mind, the first time around. Had to do a double take.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    It is looking a lot like Levi-Strauss...Stick to your button-fly 501s.
    Unless your taking in lots of fluids...

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I just threw up in my mouth a little bit...
    OMG, back when I was a professional mariner one dark and stormy night, I was up on the bridge of a heaving cargo ship in heavy seas and the Wheelman threw up in his mouth and swallowed it... which immediatley cleared the bridge as everyone hit the rails and started hurling because of what they had just witnessed...

    Thanks for the memories, it is humorous now when thinking back on that night of our misery.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    I should be thrilled by the anticipated run-up in values of my small collection but I am not. I would like see the tradition continue. It would be a sad day when nobody knows how to make them. With photographic and cinematic film, Polaroid media, when they went away photo artists lost a medium of expression.

    Skills when not passed down are soon forgotten and lost. Taste is often acquired and then passed down. If you do not supply them, the taste for them does not even get started.

    I was pootling around town checking out the many Rolex dealers in my small place. All the Yachtmasters, GMTs, Daytonas, Submariners, Sea Dwellers were sold out. I put myself on the waiting list and the dealer laughed. I must be the 100th person in line for a Yachtmaster 42 Platinum. He humoured me by saying that sometimes people do drop out. He would like to get more but Rolex could not supply them fast enough. Tudors and Omegas are aplenty. As are the other high-faluting Swiss marques with the unpronounceable names that show up a rube. Blancpain is painful when mispronounced.
    This went for MUCH less than a Rolex and is MUCH better...I wish I'd seen it ahead of time instead of 10 years too late.

    Bonhams : A rare 16th century gold sundial and compass ring, possibly German,

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Just a beginning to an eventual slow, sad end.

    The archtops aren't coming back guys. Ain't a single young gun in jazz playing a new Gibson. Not one.
    This is actually a very interesting point! I've only seen a handful of "new" Gibsons on young players, but it's never the big boxes. I guess my ES-139 isn't "new" anymore at 6 years old. I see some young players at the Academy, but if they're playing Gibsons, it's either something like a 339 or even a couple of SG's.

    I am tempted to suggest that the big jazz box is irrelevant in 2019, but then again, a lot of young players opt for instruments from smaller builders like Baker;


    ^This Vic Baker 15 inch model was $5500 in 2017. The only "new" ES-175 for sale where I'm from is $5200. I've tried one of these Bakers, and it's something else entirely.


    ^When you can get an all-carved archtop with a Lollar Imperial humbucker for $5200, the exact same price as an all-laminate ES with 57's, I can understand why a young player might opt for the former.
    (Just using Baker as an example, I know there's a ton of others)

    I don't know that there's any legitimacy to this supposition, but I wonder if Gibson painted themselves into a corner by banking on tradition and history before anything else? A lot of people I know see them as "dad" instruments, if that makes any sense. Then again, most young players are playing Fenders & superstrats, or Boutique strats and teles - I play a Tyler for gigs where I can't use an ES, such as an alternative rock gig yesterday. The other el.guitarist used a Suhr.

    Ibanez have made a great series with the AZ guitars, which have supposedly been made up using the input of very popular progressive & fusion players of the now. I can't speak for the validity for that particular claim, but I know a few people who have these guitars and they play like butter. None of the -serious- session players I know give a rat's ass about historical authenticity and all that... Henry J nearly hit the mark with innovation but seems like he didn't ask a single gigging musician... those robo tuners and all that, yuck!

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    Getting back to "core" collections... in other words their money maker lines is sound management for a company in recovery mode.

    Didn't GM 86 Pontiac and Saturn? Ford too... "Ford dropping all but 2 cars from its North American dealerships" (The mustang is a keeper) to focus on SUV's and trucks. Companies do it all the time.
    Getting OT, but I always wondered why they didn't kill Olds or Buick instead of Pontiac. They could have incorporated aspects of Olds and Buick into one. One nice upscale lineup above Chev/Pontiac, and below Caddys. Oh well.