What’s Going On Now at Gibson?

[QAman]

Hi QAman, the only thing what bothered me in your post was the word "we" in we all want Gibson to keep producing f hole guitars...I am no part ot that. That´s all.

Understood - and I certainly respect your opinion - as I do all forum members.

[Musgo Real]

Understood - and I certainly respect your opinion - as I do all forum members.

Thanks for respecting my opinion as I do with yours, but I cannot or I would not presume to speak for the rest of the forum like you.

[Jazzstdnt]

Actually it kind of was when I was young. I grew up with an ES125 that I bought for $100 at a pawn shop in 1963 (and that was in Canada!). Gibsons were being sold at the local department store too. Yes, you could get a Kent for less but they weren't playable and they were only about $35 less.

That's not what I believe people are really talking about here Jim.

Talkin' bout them L5s, Super 400s, Johnny Smiths, etc.

You know, the ones that people whine about because they don't have one.

[Jazzstdnt]

Well, well, well..."We" is a strong generalizing word spoken out from one person. To be honest, Gibson L5 CES and Wes factory made archtops looking great. But today there are so many other famous luthiers worldwide making amazing archtops, like Campellone and others. Gibson got its good image from times in which there existed no much serious competitors...only D`Angelico for example. If I got the money I would buy a Gibson archtop, too. For sure, just for bringing the shine of the brand into my home. But before buying a L5 CES I rather would buy a Campellone or Sonntag archtop. Do I really care if Gibson will producing archtops futher on...honestly no. If they are the only company worldwide making archtops, I also would be very sad about the whole companies story. But times have changed. Thank God.

Yeah, times have indeed changed. My fellow Corvette Z06 and Lexus V8 Coupe owning buddies frequently discuss how absurd the pricing is for Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche. Nice cars to be sure, and it sure would be regrettable if they failed. Oh well.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

German auto industry faces an image crisis amid falling sales

[ThatRhythmMan]

80's synthesizer sound vs real orchestra is not the same kind of relationship as digital piano with weighted keys and an acoustic piano.

Try to tell my wife that her Nord Piano she’s used to gig is almost as good as the Steinway B we have at home. The Nord is very good, and would probably fool most listeners, but it’s very far from the same for the experienced player.

While the sound of an acoustic archtop can be very different for the player and listener, I still find the visceral aspect of playing the acoustic guitar to give me a very different experience compared to playing an amplified solid body guitar. Each speaks to me in different ways, as does each individual guitar. I find that some guitars tell ME what it is that they want to say.

While I’m sure there will continue to be more, newer, better digital instruments, they won’t replace analog/acoustic instruments.

[Jim Soloway]

That's not what I believe people are really talking about here Jim.

Talkin' bout them L5s, Super 400s, Johnny Smiths, etc.

You know, the ones that people whine about because they don't have one.

For much of the conversation I thought people were talking about 175's (which is just the big brother of the 175) but regardless, these are all part of the Gibson lore and mythology.

[Tal_175]

Try to tell my wife that her Nord Piano she’s used to gig is almost as good as the Steinway B we have at home. The Nord is very good, and would probably fool most listeners, but it’s very far from the same for the experienced player.

Like I said in my earlier post, I agree that digital pianos are not there yet (but close). Will they never match the acoustic ones? The romantic in me says acoustics will always have some edge over digitals (or quantums whatever it may be in the not so far future), but my head is not so sure about that.

[Jazzstdnt]

For much of the conversation I thought people were talking about 175's (which is just the big brother of the 175) but regardless, these are all part of the Gibson lore and mythology.

Sure some ES-175 talk. But I worked in a big independent Guitar store in the late 70s and early 80s. We had Super 400s, L5s, Wes Montgomery's, Johnny Smith's, Kalamazoo Awards. Maybe a couple of ES-175s but they weren't the stuff back then, and have been even less so in recent years. In recent years the big dealers have sold a lot of Gibson carved tops, as I mentioned above. Damned nice ones.

What the crestfallen Gibson lovers, and grave dancing Gibson haters have been harping about in recent times - partly because of Henry, and partly because these guitars have been more expensive than ever, are the sexy models. (Substitute LeGrand for Johnny Smith and Citation for Kalamazoo Award). People have been speculating out of whole cloth that these guitars are gone forever, without having any verifiable reason or evidence to do so.

And lo and behold, Gibson is still committed to making them, and never said they weren't.

[wintermoon]

"Remember the slogan “ When good isn’t good enough” or something along those lines"

Very close!
That was Epiphone's answer to Gibson's "only a Gibson is good enough" slogan back in the 40s except it was "when good enough just isn't good enough"

[Jazzstdnt]

With this secondary discussion going on here about affordable instruments...

If there are decent instruments of any kind that are more affordable - and hence more likely to be available to kids any and everywhere - then that is GREAT news! But fine instruments will always be with us, the world demands them. They have always been relatively rare, and will no doubt continue to be.

In my town there is a Guitar Center and a Steinway store within a few short miles of each other on the same road. They have both been in business for decades...

[Spook410]

We all want Gibson to keep producing f hole guitars - and they will ...., just be patient.

I'm not even in the market for something in the value range of a Gibson and I still hope you're right. Just too many folks love these guitars and I hope they will get them.

[Spook410]

We grew up with 90% of jazz guitar greats playing Gibson guitars. And then music changed and jazz became a niche. And then guitar music changed. Ask a guitarist under 40 what his favorite guitar players play and what are they likely to say? So no.. it hasn't always been this way and when the current crop of guitar players gets old like us and can afford $8K guitars, Gibson won't be what they want.

Will Gibson make archtops again? Only if there is a business case for it. Some smart and well informed people on this forum believe there will be. I hope they're right but I'll be surprised to see a US made archtop from Gibson.

[Jazzstdnt]

We grew up with 90% of jazz guitar greats playing Gibson guitars. And then music changed and jazz became a niche. And then guitar music changed. Ask a guitarist under 40 what his favorite guitar players play and what are they likely to say? So no.. it hasn't always been this way and when the current crop of guitar players gets old like us and can afford $8K guitars, Gibson won't be what they want.

Will Gibson make archtops again? Only if there is a business case for it. Some smart and well informed people on this forum believe there will be. I hope they're right but I'll be surprised to see a US made archtop from Gibson.

I think you missed post #72.

[Jim Soloway]

Sure some ES-175 talk. But I worked in a big independent Guitar store in the late 70s and early 80s. We had Super 400s, L5s, Wes Montgomery's, Johnny Smith's, Kalamazoo Awards. Maybe a couple of ES-175s but they weren't the stuff back then, and have been even less so in recent years. In recent years the big dealers have sold a lot of Gibson carved tops, as I mentioned above. Damned nice ones.

What the crestfallen Gibson lovers, and grave dancing Gibson haters have been harping about in recent times - partly because of Henry, and partly because these guitars have been more expensive than ever, are the sexy models. (Substitute LeGrand for Johnny Smith and Citation for Kalamazoo Award). People have been speculating out of whole cloth that these guitars are gone forever, without having any verifiable reason or evidence to do so.

And lo and behold, Gibson is still committed to making them, and never said they weren't.

Perhaps I'm wrong but it feels like you missed a large part of this discussion. It's already been agreed that carved archtops would remain available on a custom order basis. The greater concern among many was that the ESxxx line seemed to be reduced to just the 335. Hence the concern about the disappearance of the 175 from the catalog.

[Spook410]

I think you missed post #72.

Nope. Being able to give Gibson $10K for a custom spec ES175 is not a return to production.

[Jazzstdnt]

Perhaps I'm wrong but it feels like you missed a large part of this discussion. It's already been agreed that carved archtops would remain available on a custom order basis. The greater concern among many was that the ESxxx line seemed to be reduced to just the 335. Hence the concern about the disappearance of the 175 from the catalog.

Yes, you're wrong and just want to debate. The OP is about what is happening at Gibson "Now", and it took 58 posts to make a theoretical argument that Gibson should offer the ES-175. It didn't come across as a purchase wish, nor did one get the sense that the poster owned one - (but would probably have one by now if he really wanted it).

Someone in the early posts lamented the lack of availability of non-specific ES models beyond the 335. I have owned an ES-335, an ES-347, and considered an ES-355. All good so I can relate. A later post mentioned that ES-175s never sold in the store he worked in - he didn't say he missed them, lol.

Again, it took 58 posts to have the first lament about the ES-175 not being available, and it was a theoretical argument about go-to-market strategy and product line up in terms of special orders - and it was a bad argument at that. Why?

For starters, I have watched the big dealers since 2004 and also purchased seven (7) custom shop guitars since 2006. (Wildwood, Guitar Center, Fuller's Vintage Guitar, The Music Zoo, etc.). And what did I observe? Gibson successfully moved a lot of high dollar archtops in that period and didn't need the relatively homely and competitively obsolete ES-175. (I agree with others on that last point, given the competition and demand - or should I say non-demand?). Remember, the guitar division was successful right up to Chapter 11. $1B in annual sales if I recall. Gibson needed/needs to make the ES-175 like they need a hole in the head.

On the other hand, they might build one for a recording artist, assuming there is one/are some that want one.

In summary, this thread started out as another version of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about Gibson, or celebrating it's demise, pick your poison. People jumped in and said the end is near and archtops will never return, etc. But the truth emerged, and the answer is that they are producing the iconic carved tops that they have been successful moving in recent years - "every day" - and we have photographic evidence of a brand spanking new Super 400 in front of their current volume products, with a floating humbucker no less. Very current.

All is well.

[Jim Soloway]

Yes, you're wrong and just want to debate. The OP is about what is happening at Gibson "Now", and it took 58 posts to make a theoretical argument that Gibson should offer the ES-175. It didn't come across as a purchase wish, nor did one get the sense that the poster owned one - (but would probably have one by now if he really wanted it).

Someone in the early posts lamented the lack of availability of non-specific ES models beyond the 335. I have owned an ES-335, an ES-347, and considered an ES-355. All good so I can relate. A later post mentioned that ES-175s never sold in the store he worked in - he didn't say he missed them, lol.

Again, it took 58 posts to have the first lament about the ES-175 not being available, and it was a theoretical argument about go-to-market strategy and product line up in terms of special orders - and it was a bad argument at that. Why?

For starters, I have watched the big dealers since 2004 and also purchased seven (7) custom shop guitars since 2006. (Wildwood, Guitar Center, Fuller's Vintage Guitar, The Music Zoo, etc.). And what did I observe? Gibson successfully moved a lot of high dollar archtops in that period and didn't need the relatively homely and competitively obsolete ES-175. (I agree with others on that last point, given the competition and demand - or should I say non-demand?). Remember, the guitar division was successful right up to Chapter 11. $1B in annual sales if I recall. Gibson needed/needs to make the ES-175 like they need a hole in the head.

On the other hand, they might build one for a recording artist, assuming there is one/are some that want one.

In summary, this thread started out as another version of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about Gibson, or celebrating it's demise, pick your poison. People jumped in and said the end is near and archtops will never return, etc. But the truth emerged, and the answer is that they are producing the iconic carved tops that they have been successful moving in recent years - "every day" - and we have photographic evidence of a brand spanking new Super 400 in front of their current volume products, with a floating humbucker no less. Very current.

All is well.

Ok.

[Stringswinger]

Yes, you're wrong and just want to debate. The OP is about what is happening at Gibson "Now", and it took 58 posts to make a theoretical argument that Gibson should offer the ES-175. It didn't come across as a purchase wish, nor did one get the sense that the poster owned one - (but would probably have one by now if he really wanted it).

Someone in the early posts lamented the lack of availability of non-specific ES models beyond the 335. I have owned an ES-335, an ES-347, and considered an ES-355. All good so I can relate. A later post mentioned that ES-175s never sold in the store he worked in - he didn't say he missed them, lol.

Again, it took 58 posts to have the first lament about the ES-175 not being available, and it was a theoretical argument about go-to-market strategy and product line up in terms of special orders - and it was a bad argument at that. Why?

For starters, I have watched the big dealers since 2004 and also purchased seven (7) custom shop guitars since 2006. (Wildwood, Guitar Center, Fuller's Vintage Guitar, The Music Zoo, etc.). And what did I observe? Gibson successfully moved a lot of high dollar archtops in that period and didn't need the relatively homely and competitively obsolete ES-175. (I agree with others on that last point, given the competition and demand - or should I say non-demand?). Remember, the guitar division was successful right up to Chapter 11. $1B in annual sales if I recall. Gibson needed/needs to make the ES-175 like they need a hole in the head.

On the other hand, they might build one for a recording artist, assuming there is one/are some that want one.

In summary, this thread started out as another version of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about Gibson, or celebrating it's demise, pick your poison. People jumped in and said the end is near and archtops will never return, etc. But the truth emerged, and the answer is that they are producing the iconic carved tops that they have been successful moving in recent years - "every day" - and we have photographic evidence of a brand spanking new Super 400 in front of their current volume products, with a floating humbucker no less. Very current.

All is well.

Seeing how post # 58 was mine, I probably should respond.

1. I own 3 ES-175's and have no interest or desire to purchase another. If you looked at my avatar you will see a picture of me holding one of them.

2. Your observation about the 175's looks are simply your opinion.

3. Your observation about them being obsolete is also just an opinion (and perhaps a mistaken one as many working jazz pros, like myself, still use these in live performance on a regular basis). But for a financially well off guy who has bought 7 Custom shop Gibson's in recent years, the lower model 175, more suited to a professional musician's needs rather than a collector who prefers fancier models, the 175 may indeed be "obsolete".

4. If there is a market for a new 175 and those potential 175 buyers are instead buying competitors products or used 175's than Gibson is forgoing additional profits that their trademarked model could provide. Marginal profit is still profit and it is the fiduciary duty of the directors and officers of the Gibson Corporation to maximize profits.

5. As a later poster posits that he knows someone on the inside and that a 175 can be had by special order, all is indeed good from my perspective.

[Jazzstdnt]

Seeing how post # 58 was mine, I probably should respond.

1. I own 3 ES-175's and have no interest or desire to purchase another. If you looked at my avatar you will see a picture of me holding one of them.

2. Your observation about the 175's looks are simply your opinion.

3. Your observation about them being obsolete is also just an opinion (and perhaps a mistaken one as many working jazz pros, like myself, still use these in live performance on a regular basis). But for a financially well off guy who has bought 7 Custom shop Gibson's in recent years, the lower model 175, more suited to a professional musician's needs rather than a collector who prefers fancier models, the 175 may indeed be "obsolete".

4. If there is a market for a new 175 and those potential 175 buyers are instead buying competitors products or used 175's than Gibson is forgoing additional profits that their trademarked model could provide. Marginal profit is still profit and it is the fiduciary duty of the directors and officers of the Gibson Corporation to maximize profits.

5. As a later poster posits that he knows someone on the inside and that a 175 can be had by special order, all is indeed good from my perspective.

Lol, well I took that risk, good to hear from you.

And OK, I can't really see the small picture in your avatar, and am fully cognizant that a person's avatar means nothing to anyone, but them.

So you're an ES-175 owner and fan? Great.

Yes I already know that I'm entitled to my opinion about them being relatively homely, and am comfortable with that. Now you may think they look like heaven, but I never implied that makes your opinion stink.

On the working man stuff, I'm just a working man too. There are other gigging musicians, some on this very forum, who don't play that axe, and prefer 17-inch carved tops, so let's not pretend it's not a preference by throwing in deflections about people being "well off' and such. It's simply your choice and you like it.

It's not necessarily the fiduciary duty of Gibson to specifically make ES-175s, as such. Time will tell, the market will speak, and they will decide.

[Alter]

I think the nuances of the guitar world might be unknown to the people deciding about the current ES lineup at Gibson. The passion certainly is. So they go with the models that justify a higher price, like the carved top ones. Also they realize their current main target customer group is not musicians, so again, no 175. There are really not many reasons to go with a 175 over a solid archtop if not gigging (other than price).

I think to really pursue excellence in jazz guitar making, same as in jazz music and related businesses, there has to be some love and passion involved, a simple business plan won't do. Same as in all businesses really..

[christianm77]

Shops can’t sell them. I know people who have got L5’s at a 25% knock down.

So it’s up to Gibson whether they want to carry on that tradition really. Tbh I don’t see new Gibsons being popular with the cool kid jazz players - the indie luthier thing is popular with the up and coming jazzers when they are ready to splurge on a great axe - and yer guitar heads in the professions mostly just want to have the guitar Clapton played in 1966 or whatever.

You can probably find a guy who’ll make you a better 175 than Gibson can for the same money. Or get an old one.

Plus this isn’t a popular sentiment, but cheap Far Eastern guitars are getting pretty good. Even my old Ibanez Artcore still eats gigs for breakfast.... the new Dangelico EXLs are the kind of guitar that would fill the same role that the 175 did for generations past.

So I don’t blame Gibson. It’s quite hard to tell sometimes, but one would imagine they are in the business to make money, or at least stabilise their financial position.

From a retailer post of view, not having to take guitars they can’t sell is probably a great thing.

[lawson-stone]

I have 3 ES175’s and a 1990’s ES165. HOnestly on a budget, my Epiphone ES175 Premium would be a great guitar, and my Epi Zephyr Regent Re-issue which I got for $450 and put a Seymour DUncan Seth-Love PU in, is wonderful. They are NOT “just the same” as the Gibsons, of course. So nobody ask me for my Gibsons! But The Epiphone are really great, and someone wanting the ES1x5 mojo for less money, who is not as enchanted with the Gibson magic as I am, would find them superb. Ironically, of course, a great clone can often “sell” the real thing to someone who has discovered the ES1x5 magic without selling their car to pay for it.


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[Jazzstdnt]

A few final thoughts:

Well of course Gibson is in business to make money. There may be other drivers but making money is job one.

Having archtops in a retail store may not be a great plan. They do sit, and always have. Wildwood Guitars however is one example of a dealer that CAN show their Gibson Custom instruments online - and hence does a good online business. If you can't do that how are you going to sell to remote customers? It's doable, but tougher.

For the record - people who play musical instruments are musicians. One doesn't have to be a pro musician to be a musician. (Same as sports/athletics).

And yes, real live gigging musicians play carved top Gibsons, Benedettos, Buscarinos, Zeidlers, Montelleones, etc.

It's also true that many stylish young hipsters may not be inclined to play such instruments. For one thing they stand up (like rockers) when they play and need to look slim, nimble and cool. Most don't play straight-ahead jazz. The few that do play straight ahead may be on a tight budget. But - (1) We don't know what they have at the house and (2) they may change guitars over time as they get a little longer in the tooth. Most everybody changes guitars anyway.

[jads57]

I really enjoy the history lesson about the Gibson company Ken Parker gave in his video. Basically they only became a guitar manufacturer after Banjos and Mandolins went out of style!
Karoeke anyone?

[CliveR]

Veblen?

Economics jargon