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Ok, as the thread says I am trying to wrap my head around Gibson Wine Red guitars most especially the Wesmo L5's. To me the color of these in pictures never looks like what I see when in hand. I have seen a number over the years and repaired and did work on them ( never any finish work) but just did not pay attention. I am really just interested in the jazz box versions of these colors.
Is there a difference in the actual Wine Red from what some call simply Red?
Then I see sometimes transparent Cherry color an again the terms throws me, anyone know?
Finally, are there Wine Red guitars that are really not transparent in color but solid? I don't believe I have seen this but never hurts to ask, and is Gibson pretty inconsistent in colors from batch to batch or years?
I normally automatically think WIne Red and they used less figured wood but I have seen some that in fact have really nice figure. I also find them to be the lowest in the price but I have seen what I call Red Transparent that looks really sharp and cool.
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09-23-2019 03:08 PM
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The wine color suggests a darker red, quasi burgundy almost. There's cherry and faded cherry.
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I have a wine red WESMO and in the past had a 1968 Cherry ES-335. Very different in color. The Cherry is more transparent and more "red". The Wine red is dark and like Ebony (though not nearly as much as Ebony) does a damn good job of hiding imperfections in the wood.
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What MG said!
In the photo: WR in the upper left, dark faded cherry upper right, light faded cherry in the lower right, and a custom color that's lighter than WR, in the lower left.
Over the years WR has shown up as a range of colors--sometimes it's got lots of burgundy, sometimes not so much, and sometimes with a metallic sheen, too.
There's also just cherry, which is more opaque:
It comes in dark and light also.
Danny W
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Thanks for the clarification Mark and Danny. I also wondered about all the different red shadings.
Nice of you to post the pics.
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The last pic is the natural wine red color. Light and pictures can make the color more red looking.
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Think mine is transparent cherry
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Gibson wine red and Gibson cherry are both quite nice colors.
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I really like the look of a black L5 too.
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Here are the backs of my Wine red L-5 and my Blonde L-5. You can see that Gibson saves the best figured woods for the blondes and uses the Wine red for woods that are less than uniform.
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Wine and black are Gibson’s economy L5’s. Nothing to do with tone.
My wine L5 sounds better than my flamey Blonde.
Jimmy D’Aquisto was adamant that plain maple sounded better than flamed. Of course we all love those tiger stripes.
You must admit though Gibson gets the best looking wood period.
Chrome won’t get you home and flame won’t up your fame.
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No argument from me about tone (or playability) of a guitar with fancy appointments vs. one with plainer appointments.
I have played some L-7's that sounded and played better than some L-5's. And my wine red L-5 (which sounds and plays great) is not going to be leaving my harem anytime soon)
Flame may not up your fame, but it will get you complements from fellow guitar players during the break. If impressing chicks is important, flame may be of no help. You are better off with the potato in the pants trick (just remember to put the potato in the front.)
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Or be like Tom Jones and tape a salami to leg.
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I've seen some great woods on other archtops, too. Aaron Cowles had access to superb woods for his Unity archtop guitars:
But, Gibson surely does/did have some great woods for its top-shelf archtops.
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SS the flame stills shows good on some wine red, I have not look at one in person in a long time. However as to impressing the chicks and now a confirmed celibate I prefer my guitars have some flame. A harem of few guitars is much easier to manage the Church has no issues with that.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
No argument from me about tone (or playability) of a guitar with fancy appointments vs. one with plainer appointments.
I have played some L-7's that sounded and played better than some L-5's. And my wine red L-5 (which sounds and plays great) is not going to be leaving my harem anytime soon)
Flame may not up your fame, but it will get you complements from fellow guitar players during the break. If impressing chicks is important, flame may be of no help. You are better off with the potato in the pants trick (just remember to put the potato in the front.)
Hoping to add one soon?
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Mark, Originally Posted by deacon Mark
They say that if it has tits or wheels it will cause you problems. Frets? Those are problems that a guy like you can solve easily.
Good luck finding the Gibson of your dreams!
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1994 Wes WR:
Danny W.
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Danny that is a beautiful Wes really nice and guess in person really shows much more flame. You always manage the best yours I take it?
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Mark, right now there are three WesMo on Ebay in "wine red" and all look very different. Like my Tal Farlow in "Claret" they likely just show differently depending on light.
Same git, different lighting.
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Cherry sunburst - what a fun color for the Gibson Barney Kessel guitars! They must have been a shocking show stopper, then, among the traditionalists. Jim Bastian called it the cartoon modern style; I love mine, as electric guitars, that is!
Since folks are interested in discussing the shades of wine-red, red-transparent or cherry, etc., I'm asking myself if they know about the dyes that are mostly used to create such color wonders. Violin makers do have a zillion of different colors and color shades - often self-made in a sophisticated and time-consuming way. Why are the colors used in steel string guitar making usually brilliant and intense (some would call them 'eye-catching)', but often also uniformly looking, sometimes opaque without emphasizing the wood figure (the worst example is the so-called 'burnt maple' look where any chatoyance even of the nicest wood figure was killed), in some cases even muddy?
Well, for trying to answer this a book would not be sufficient. So, I'm gonna take a short cut, and ask the question:
What do dyes for printing have in common with modern guitar dyes?
Answer: they are mainly the same type, that is to say metal complex dyes (chromium, aluminum, cobalt, copper, tin), of which often the transparent ones are used for higher-end archtop guitars with pronounced wood figure (I consider nice grain lines of a spruce top as pronounced figure as well).
StewMac's offers 20 ColorTone liquid stains. "ColorTone concentrated stains mix with virtually any finish, and are formulated specifically for luthiers. They are accurate and authentic stringed instrument colors, as researched and specified by our own guitar finishing experts […].
Well, this is, at least, partially true because they have to mix the commercially available (pure) dyes.
For the not so experienced or color-interested builders Hammerl in Germany offers the following range, smaller or more selected than StewMac, but nevertheless of the same quality and shade of the (pure) colors: Hammerl Geigenlacke - DIE GEIGENLACK-MANUFAKTUR - Color extracts . "The colour extracts can be mixed with each other without any difficulties. They are suitable for all of our varnishes."
Violin makers were among the first to use these dyes in the Middle Ages, like the alizarin from the root of the dyer's madder.
So, no matter whether your solvent is oil, spirit, ester, water, epoxy, PUR, etc., metal complex dyes should generally work, the main reason for their huge success, besides their generally excellent stability and good lightfastness. Still take care, some reds can't be recommended! Enthusiasts of German vintage archtop guitars will know, for example, what happened to the red nitrocellulose finishs of Rod Hoyer guitars).
If someone would be interested in the whole range and properties of these dyes - sorry, no direct link available! - he/she may google, for example, 'BASF Colors and Effects Brochure Orasol'.
Like many violin makers have been doing all the while, color mixing has to be considered as a potential pitfall, even disaster. This especially applies to mixing reds with yellows to make oranges and possibly adding black or blue to make browns. 'Mixing' always turn colors muddy and opaque (which can be seen on some guitars - well, if you have the eye for that). A better option is 'blending', which involves taking different batches of the 'same' color to create a specific shade of that color. Sadly, we hardly see that on guitars … yet a real master guitar bears a master finish.
Oh, and don't forget how large the profit margin could be for commercial resellers of metal complex dyes. StewMac, for example, sells 2-ounze bottles, whereas you can get the authentic stuff for stringed instruments - or printing dyes, or whatever commodities - much cheaper through Kremer Pigmente (available also in the U.S.).
Feel free to correct me, if you know more about dyes and finishing procedures in the guitar biz!
These topics, IMO, are far too rarely addressed in the guitar world!
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What model is the one on the top left? Do you know the upper bout & lower bout dimensions? Originally Posted by Danny W.
What MG said!
In the photo: WR in the upper left, dark faded cherry upper right, light faded cherry in the lower right, and a custom color that's lighter than WR, in the lower left.
Danny W
Its beautiful both in shape and color combination.
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But in the "event", what if she prefers the potato to the attachment? How humiliating. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
... If impressing chicks is important, ... [y]ou are better off with the potato in the pants trick (just remember to put the potato in the front.)
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I refinished a guitar in "Gibson Cherry Red" based on the formula presented in the link below (farthest back in the picture). However, my Gibsons with factory original finish all look different, so there is a lot of leeway in the formula.
Gibson Cherry Red Formula
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Talking colors is just as difficult as talking tone or neck profiles...
Here are my 3 present red Gibson guitars. The L5 and the 335 are both cherry, the LPC is winered.
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I like seeing that Les Paul Custom. What year is that?
This is my 1976 Custom in similar body color. For sure it came originally with nickel hardware, but the more Les Paul Customs I see of this vintage, the more I think mine originally had black trim.
Anyway, mine came to me in pieces with only a cream poker chip in the case. No pickups or trim. When I restored it I tried to duplicate the original finish but made it into a 'period correct' slightly modified guitar with DiMmarzio Super Distortion and PAF pickups. Something that would have been common in 1976.
Maybe some day I'll restore it again with original T-tops with nickel covers and black trim.
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