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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    These amps really raise an interesting question. If they are as good as Fender says, why would someone buy the TMDR instead of the TMTR? The price difference is not huge, the weight difference, okay, 10 lbs is noticeable. But otherwise, what would be the point of the TMDR over the TMTR?

    Could it be that the difference between 2 6V6 power tubes vs. 4 6L6 is captured in the modeling and if folks really prefer the 6V6 sound they'd go with the DR? It would be interesting if the two amps really were that different. I tend to think people chose the originals mainly based on power and weight. Someone who wanted to really burn in any venue went with the TR. Someone playing smaller clubs went with the DR. But now, the only reason I can figure would be that the TM amps somehow capture the difference in the character of each.

    But I haven't seen or heard them live, just wondering why someone would go with the TMDR when for $100 more, they could have the TMTR?
    Hm, I think there is more difference than the earlier breakup – which would be neutralized by the output power switch – I think 1x12" sounds different than 2x12".
    The obsession with weight is hard to understand for me. Most of us drive to a gig (car or cab) – so weight difference of a few pounds is really not a big thing – or you're using public transportation – which would explain why you want to lose every pound you can – but both these amps would be too bulky to carry on a crowded subway, wouldn't they?

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  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by guavajelly View Post
    Hm, I think there is more difference than the earlier breakup – which would be neutralized by the output power switch – I think 1x12" sounds different than 2x12".
    The obsession with weight is hard to understand for me. Most of us drive to a gig (car or cab) – so weight difference of a few pounds is really not a big thing – or you're using public transportation – which would explain why you want to lose every pound you can – but both these amps would be too bulky to carry on a crowded subway, wouldn't they?
    Do more gigs, and you’ll get it.

  4. #203

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    So my thoughts on trying one yesterday.
    - the same things annoyed me about this amp as annoy me about the real thing.
    - it’s eminently schleppable.
    - responds great to dirt pedals
    - I find it easier to play than my Princeton at gig volume. Maybe the class D power amp?
    - I probably wouldn’t take in rush hour through kings cross station. OTOH I think I could schelp it on the tube.

  5. #204

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    There will still be biases against anything Fender that doesn't contain tubes, however, I think Fender has indeed cracked the code with these.

    I've seen SO MANY people guess wrong (me included) with the shootout videos, and/or prefer the digital over the tube. I've seen a couple of pros now who think the TM Deluxe is BETTER than the tube version. The bottom line seems to be, as for feel, they are the same. As for tone, the tube vs digital have no more differences than 2 tube amps (2 Deluxes) would have to one another, it could be tube bias, tube brand, how well the speaker had been flogged, component drift or cap leakage due to age... the one guy in the Andertons video even said "I owned 2 Twins, they both sounded good but one sounded great, I kept that one."

    I know I spent 2 hours going back and forth between my Fender tube amp and a Roland Blues Cube Artist yesterday, and while I DID have a preference, I couldn't say one sounded any "better" than the other, and had I been blindfolded....
    Last edited by ruger9; 10-04-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  6. #205

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    "...schlep it on the tube"

    Has a musical ring about it.

    Probably an 'adults only' thing, though.

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
    "...schlep it on the tube"

    Has a musical ring about it.

    Probably an 'adults only' thing, though.
    I was thinkin "for that last time, it's SS!!!"
    Build bridges, not walls.

  8. #207

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    Another consideration, minor to most here but matters to buskers, is that a Class D amp can run on a lithium battery. Though in fact, can't say I want to see a busker driving a twin on the street.
    Hell is full of musical amateurs - George Bernard Shaw

  9. #208

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    Listen, in England

    Valve = tube
    Tube = subway
    Subway = nasty underpass you might get mugged in
    Pants = underpants
    Trousers = pants

    Perfectly simple

  10. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Listen, in England

    Valve = tube
    Tube = subway
    Subway = nasty underpass you might get mugged in
    Pants = underpants
    Trousers = pants

    Perfectly simple
    Imagine, these folks gave us a big chunk of Western Civ.

    Goes to show you never can tell.

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410 View Post
    Another consideration, minor to most here but matters to buskers, is that a Class D amp can run on a lithium battery. Though in fact, can't say I want to see a busker driving a twin on the street.
    My idea of a "pay or die" busker.

  12. #211

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    I tried one out. I really didn’t want to like these amps, because of the SS factor, but after spending 2 hours with the TMDR... I love it. I’m thinking about jumping on this ship.
    I’ve played quite a bunch of “real” deluxes and to my ears the tonemaster sounds a lot better than most of them.
    I did not like the attenuator thingy. The amp lost most of its bounce once i turned it to 12w and only got worse from there. i turned it to ten on the lowest wattage just to see how it would respond, sounded horrible! not a fan of that feature.
    The reverb was a bit off too. It got really intense real quick. to me it sounded more like a fender reverb unit than a blackface amp. yet it was miles ahead from the 65 spring in the tre-verb pedal.
    I feel really conflicted about these amps. I think i need to spend some more time with them and i’d like to take it to a gig before buying one. might have to abuse thomanns return policy
    I‘m sceptical about how they hold up in the real world. If they really are as reliable as fender claims, it would seem to me that the future is tubeless.

  13. #212

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    I shouldn't, but I'm going to check out the TMTR. It weighs less that my 44lb 1x12 *cabinet*! (Okay it has a EVM12L in it )
    Build bridges, not walls.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaagup View Post
    The reverb was a bit off too. It got really intense real quick. to me it sounded more like a fender reverb unit than a blackface amp
    It would be *awesome* if Fender provided a way to connect to the unit's computer and adjust its configuration. Tweaking the reverb so that the knob adjustment was more gradual ought to be trivial.

    For folks who just want a plug and play amp, simply pretend like you didn't read this!
    Build bridges, not walls.

  15. #214

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    I bought the TMDR last week. Have used it in two gigs and regret not using it in a third. Love the lightweight. Tone and response are at least as good as the tube version. I wish I could do something that creates this much happiness for myself more often.

  16. #215
    I tried a Twin TM. Deluxe Reverb TM was already sold out. Unfortunately, Twin is the Blackface model I'm the least familiar with. I've owned a Princeton and DR's twice. I currently own a DR. From what I remember from playing through Twins in the past, they sound a bit different than DR. So I can't comment on how well it nails the original but it sounded really good. It sounded like a good blackface Fender amp. I liked it very much in all wattage settings.

    The original twin was in a different part of the store so I couldn't A/B it. But there were Roland Blues Cube Stage and Blues Cube Artist right next to it. The good thing is the Artist was pretty much the same price, the same size cabinet and 2x12 configuration. It also sounded to me like it was trying to do ball park blackface thing. I preferred the Twin. I enjoyed playing through the Twin more. Note however the BC Artist has more configuration options. It's possible that I could make it just as good after some tweaking, but Twin sounded really good in all settings. I compared them in mid scooped and slightly mid pushed EQ settings both clean and lightly overdriven.

    BC Stage sounded much more tweedy. So apples and oranges. I loved it. It's such a fun amp and also very realistic in terms of sounding like a tube amp. Since I already have a Fender DR, if I was to buy an amp that day, I would've walked away with the BC Stage. It's just as good as the Twin TM but it's the tweed flavor.

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I probably wouldn’t take in rush hour through kings cross station. OTOH I think I could schelp it on the tube.
    OTOH you bring your own seat. Honestly I did a lot of gigs traveling with public transportation. Lately the subway here is so full that I feel like embarrassing other passengers if I take a guitar and amp.23 lbs is definately schleppable. But would I want to schlepp ist a few blocks? Maybe I'm just getting older?

  18. #217

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    The quote feature isn't working properly for some reason...
    "But there were Roland Blues Cube Stage and Blues Cube Artist right next to it. The good thing is the Artist was pretty much the same price, the same size cabinet and 2x12 configuration. It also sounded to me like it was trying to do ball park blackface thing."



    Actually, the Blues Cube Stage/Artist is specifically going for the tweed Bassman thing... (as stock... that's what the Tone Capsules are for: to change it's sound into things other than tweed bassman, i.e., more vox, more blackface, etc)


  19. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9 View Post
    The quote feature isn't working properly for some reason...
    "But there were Roland Blues Cube Stage and Blues Cube Artist right next to it. The good thing is the Artist was pretty much the same price, the same size cabinet and 2x12 configuration. It also sounded to me like it was trying to do ball park blackface thing."



    Actually, the Blues Cube Stage/Artist is specifically going for the tweed Bassman thing... (as stock... that's what the Tone Capsules are for: to change it's sound into things other than tweed bassman, i.e., more vox, more blackface, etc)

    I'm sure that's true. Like I said, BC Stage sounded very obviously like a tweed amp. Artist on the other hand, may be partly because of the big 2x12 cabinet, had a deep and less midrangy tone that I expect from a tweed type amp. It was also brighter than the BC stage at the same time. Hence me thinking blackface. But it could be the EQ.

  20. #219

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  22. #221

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    That demo in the above post ^

    Very impressed, the 5w setting even sounds great.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  23. #222

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    You should try it out live. The demo videos don't do justice to what the power adjustment does.

  24. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    .. Blues Cube Artist right next to it.
    (oops.. duplicate info from Ruger's post..)

    Have a 1X12 version. Thing is, unless you want more of the tweed sound they were targeting, you have to install one of the 'tone capsules', $150-$250 to tailor the sound. I'm using a the 'sparkle clean' that's supposed to emulate something like a KT66. Works well with an archtop and no plans to replace it. But probably would have acquired the TM Twin instead if it had been available. Same weight, twice everything else.
    Hell is full of musical amateurs - George Bernard Shaw

  25. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410 View Post
    (oops.. duplicate info from Ruger's post..)

    Have a 1X12 version. Thing is, unless you want more of the tweed sound they were targeting, you have to install one of the 'tone capsules', $150-$250 to tailor the sound. I'm using a the 'sparkle clean' that's supposed to emulate something like a KT66. Works well with an archtop and no plans to replace it. But probably would have acquired the TM Twin instead if it had been available. Same weight, twice everything else.
    This is a bit off topic but what I would really love is Blues Cube with one Tweed Deluxe channel and one original Cube 60 or Jazz Chorus channel. The crunch channel seemed useless to me as you can get awesome tweed crunch on the clean channel using the separate master volume and wattage settings already. It would be more useful if it had an unapologetic solid state channel (no tube emulation) with a 100% clean head room and one Tweed channel (all the tube glory).
    Last edited by Tal_175; 10-08-2019 at 05:43 PM.

  26. #225

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    How likely is it that Fender will come out with a Tone Master 5F6-A?
    Build bridges, not walls.

  27. #226

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    Everything will depend on the success of the 2 current models. But I would think, if TM is a big success, that the 5F6-A is definitely one of the models they'd do.

  28. #227

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    I would want to demo a Tonemaster in person using at least two different guitars. A few years ago, a friend bought a Fender acoustic amp that used digital modelling technology. While the amp sounded good, every guitar that I tried through it sounded the same. That is not the case with a real tube amp. I would imagine that the technology has improved, but like President Reagan said years ago "Trust, but verify".
    _____________________________________________
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  29. #228

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    This is quite interesting, because with my Roland Blues Cube Artist, I can here MORE differences in my guitars than I do through my Fender tube amp...

  30. #229

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    Wait a second! Is the TM DR putting out 100 watts?

  31. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack View Post
    Wait a second! Is the TM DR putting out 100 watts?
    100 solid state watts =~= 22 tube watts apparently.

  32. #231

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    Whoops. Cos I can't edit, you can spot a big noob technical error in what I typed above. Have at me!

    God rot you, JGO server migration!

  33. #232

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    All the more weird because it didn't post my comment at all apparently. Can't be arsed to retype. As you were.

  34. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    100 solid state watts =~= 22 tube watts apparently.
    Their website says "Using a high-performance 100-watt digital power amp to achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp..." They use a vastly over-powered output amp to get the effect of headroom. I have played a TMTR which uses a 200 watt power amp to get the dynamic range of a tube TR and while I don't have vast years of experience playing a TR I have played them enough to know the TMTR does an amazing job on that. We've always known anecdotally that "tube watts" seem to have a different loudness and range from the same "solid state watts." Fender evidently incorporated that into the design of the Tone Master amps.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  35. #234
    More reviews:

  36. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    More reviews:
    ULTIMATE PHOTO BOMB: Check out that SUITE Silvertone 1484 head behind him!!!!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  37. #236

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    I did, and it brought to mind the nite my 1484 went up in smoke! A hot summer night and 1000 people in attendance. I had to plug into the bass-player's Bassman amp with him! I paid $40 for that amp, and I made $5 for the nite. I was 15 and off to a good start (learning the ups and downs of gigging).

  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack View Post
    I did, and it brought to mind the nite my 1484 went up in smoke! A hot summer night and 1000 people in attendance. I had to plug into the bass-player's Bassman amp with him! I paid $40 for that amp, and I made $5 for the nite. I was 15 and off to a good start (learning the ups and downs of gigging).
    Awesome story! I have a 1484 head that had all the original tubes, but they seemed a bit tired, so I put new 6L6's in and changed out some preamp tubes. It's a fine sounding amp. I have a Yamaha G100-210 and I plug the dual 10" speakers into the head, and wow that thing can really sing. Or roar.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack View Post
    I did, and it brought to mind the nite my 1484 went up in smoke! A hot summer night and 1000 people in attendance. I had to plug into the bass-player's Bassman amp with him! I paid $40 for that amp, and I made $5 for the nite. I was 15 and off to a good start (learning the ups and downs of gigging).
    Great story. Same thing happened to my 1484. Not a thousand people though.

  40. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Their website says "Using a high-performance 100-watt digital power amp to achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp..." They use a vastly over-powered output amp to get the effect of headroom. I have played a TMTR which uses a 200 watt power amp to get the dynamic range of a tube TR and while I don't have vast years of experience playing a TR I have played them enough to know the TMTR does an amazing job on that. We've always known anecdotally that "tube watts" seem to have a different loudness and range from the same "solid state watts." Fender evidently incorporated that into the design of the Tone Master amps.
    The voltage headroom of 100W over 22W is only 2.13 times. The power amp must never clip, whatever the simulated drive signal given to it. Presumably the real amp can produce transient spikes or whatnot that exceed the nominal peak voltage for 22W. Fortunately, using a class D amp the efficiency can be maintained even when using less than full output, which would not be the case with a conventional class B amp.

    The real problem with this sort of kit is getting parts and servicing when something goes wrong. I would guess that servicing will be at the board replacement level and that after a few years a faulty amp would be a write off.

  41. #240

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    I played the house amp at a gig today - a Peavey Classic 20W lunchbox head through a 12" cab (I think.) Sounded like a Deluxe Reverb. So... I just need Fender (or Peavey) to a digital version of that and bwahaahahahahaahahahaaaaargghhhh.