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Hm, I think there is more difference than the earlier breakup – which would be neutralized by the output power switch – I think 1x12" sounds different than 2x12".
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The obsession with weight is hard to understand for me. Most of us drive to a gig (car or cab) – so weight difference of a few pounds is really not a big thing – or you're using public transportation – which would explain why you want to lose every pound you can – but both these amps would be too bulky to carry on a crowded subway, wouldn't they?
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10-04-2019 06:24 AM
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Do more gigs, and you’ll get it. Originally Posted by guavajelly
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So my thoughts on trying one yesterday.
- the same things annoyed me about this amp as annoy me about the real thing.
- it’s eminently schleppable.
- responds great to dirt pedals
- I find it easier to play than my Princeton at gig volume. Maybe the class D power amp?
- I probably wouldn’t take in rush hour through kings cross station. OTOH I think I could schelp it on the tube.
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There will still be biases against anything Fender that doesn't contain tubes, however, I think Fender has indeed cracked the code with these.
I've seen SO MANY people guess wrong (me included) with the shootout videos, and/or prefer the digital over the tube. I've seen a couple of pros now who think the TM Deluxe is BETTER than the tube version. The bottom line seems to be, as for feel, they are the same. As for tone, the tube vs digital have no more differences than 2 tube amps (2 Deluxes) would have to one another, it could be tube bias, tube brand, how well the speaker had been flogged, component drift or cap leakage due to age... the one guy in the Andertons video even said "I owned 2 Twins, they both sounded good but one sounded great, I kept that one."
I know I spent 2 hours going back and forth between my Fender tube amp and a Roland Blues Cube Artist yesterday, and while I DID have a preference, I couldn't say one sounded any "better" than the other, and had I been blindfolded....Last edited by ruger9; 10-04-2019 at 08:03 AM.
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"...schlep it on the tube"
Has a musical ring about it.
Probably an 'adults only' thing, though.
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I was thinkin "for that last time, it's SS!!!" Originally Posted by rabbit
Build bridges, not walls.
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Another consideration, minor to most here but matters to buskers, is that a Class D amp can run on a lithium battery. Though in fact, can't say I want to see a busker driving a twin on the street.
Hell is full of musical amateurs - George Bernard Shaw
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Listen, in England
Valve = tube
Tube = subway
Subway = nasty underpass you might get mugged in
Pants = underpants
Trousers = pants
Perfectly simple
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Imagine, these folks gave us a big chunk of Western Civ. Originally Posted by christianm77
Goes to show you never can tell.
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My idea of a "pay or die" busker. Originally Posted by Spook410
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I tried one out. I really didn’t want to like these amps, because of the SS factor, but after spending 2 hours with the TMDR... I love it. I’m thinking about jumping on this ship.
I’ve played quite a bunch of “real” deluxes and to my ears the tonemaster sounds a lot better than most of them.
I did not like the attenuator thingy. The amp lost most of its bounce once i turned it to 12w and only got worse from there. i turned it to ten on the lowest wattage just to see how it would respond, sounded horrible! not a fan of that feature.
The reverb was a bit off too. It got really intense real quick. to me it sounded more like a fender reverb unit than a blackface amp. yet it was miles ahead from the 65 spring in the tre-verb pedal.
I feel really conflicted about these amps. I think i need to spend some more time with them and i’d like to take it to a gig before buying one. might have to abuse thomanns return policy
I‘m sceptical about how they hold up in the real world. If they really are as reliable as fender claims, it would seem to me that the future is tubeless.
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I shouldn't, but I'm going to check out the TMTR. It weighs less that my 44lb 1x12 *cabinet*! (Okay it has a EVM12L in it
)
Build bridges, not walls.
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It would be *awesome* if Fender provided a way to connect to the unit's computer and adjust its configuration. Tweaking the reverb so that the knob adjustment was more gradual ought to be trivial. Originally Posted by Jaagup
For folks who just want a plug and play amp, simply pretend like you didn't read this!Build bridges, not walls.
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I bought the TMDR last week. Have used it in two gigs and regret not using it in a third. Love the lightweight. Tone and response are at least as good as the tube version. I wish I could do something that creates this much happiness for myself more often.
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I tried a Twin TM. Deluxe Reverb TM was already sold out. Unfortunately, Twin is the Blackface model I'm the least familiar with. I've owned a Princeton and DR's twice. I currently own a DR. From what I remember from playing through Twins in the past, they sound a bit different than DR. So I can't comment on how well it nails the original but it sounded really good. It sounded like a good blackface Fender amp. I liked it very much in all wattage settings.
The original twin was in a different part of the store so I couldn't A/B it. But there were Roland Blues Cube Stage and Blues Cube Artist right next to it. The good thing is the Artist was pretty much the same price, the same size cabinet and 2x12 configuration. It also sounded to me like it was trying to do ball park blackface thing. I preferred the Twin. I enjoyed playing through the Twin more. Note however the BC Artist has more configuration options. It's possible that I could make it just as good after some tweaking, but Twin sounded really good in all settings. I compared them in mid scooped and slightly mid pushed EQ settings both clean and lightly overdriven.
BC Stage sounded much more tweedy. So apples and oranges. I loved it. It's such a fun amp and also very realistic in terms of sounding like a tube amp. Since I already have a Fender DR, if I was to buy an amp that day, I would've walked away with the BC Stage. It's just as good as the Twin TM but it's the tweed flavor.
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OTOH you bring your own seat. Honestly I did a lot of gigs traveling with public transportation. Lately the subway here is so full that I feel like embarrassing other passengers if I take a guitar and amp.23 lbs is definately schleppable. But would I want to schlepp ist a few blocks? Maybe I'm just getting older? Originally Posted by christianm77
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The quote feature isn't working properly for some reason...
"But there were Roland Blues Cube Stage and Blues Cube Artist right next to it. The good thing is the Artist was pretty much the same price, the same size cabinet and 2x12 configuration. It also sounded to me like it was trying to do ball park blackface thing."
Actually, the Blues Cube Stage/Artist is specifically going for the tweed Bassman thing... (as stock... that's what the Tone Capsules are for: to change it's sound into things other than tweed bassman, i.e., more vox, more blackface, etc)
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I'm sure that's true. Like I said, BC Stage sounded very obviously like a tweed amp. Artist on the other hand, may be partly because of the big 2x12 cabinet, had a deep and less midrangy tone that I expect from a tweed type amp. It was also brighter than the BC stage at the same time. Hence me thinking blackface. But it could be the EQ. Originally Posted by ruger9
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London Jazz Guitar Society: www.meetup.com/londonjazzguitarsociety
LJGS on Twitter: www.twitter.com/LDNJazzGuitar
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That demo in the above post ^
Very impressed, the 5w setting even sounds great.B+
Frank (aka fep)
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You should try it out live. The demo videos don't do justice to what the power adjustment does.
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(oops.. duplicate info from Ruger's post..) Originally Posted by Tal_175
Have a 1X12 version. Thing is, unless you want more of the tweed sound they were targeting, you have to install one of the 'tone capsules', $150-$250 to tailor the sound. I'm using a the 'sparkle clean' that's supposed to emulate something like a KT66. Works well with an archtop and no plans to replace it. But probably would have acquired the TM Twin instead if it had been available. Same weight, twice everything else.Hell is full of musical amateurs - George Bernard Shaw
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This is a bit off topic but what I would really love is Blues Cube with one Tweed Deluxe channel and one original Cube 60 or Jazz Chorus channel. The crunch channel seemed useless to me as you can get awesome tweed crunch on the clean channel using the separate master volume and wattage settings already. It would be more useful if it had an unapologetic solid state channel (no tube emulation) with a 100% clean head room and one Tweed channel (all the tube glory). Originally Posted by Spook410
Last edited by Tal_175; 10-08-2019 at 05:43 PM.
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How likely is it that Fender will come out with a Tone Master 5F6-A?
Build bridges, not walls.
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Everything will depend on the success of the 2 current models. But I would think, if TM is a big success, that the 5F6-A is definitely one of the models they'd do.
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I would want to demo a Tonemaster in person using at least two different guitars. A few years ago, a friend bought a Fender acoustic amp that used digital modelling technology. While the amp sounded good, every guitar that I tried through it sounded the same. That is not the case with a real tube amp. I would imagine that the technology has improved, but like President Reagan said years ago "Trust, but verify".
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"When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass
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This is quite interesting, because with my Roland Blues Cube Artist, I can here MORE differences in my guitars than I do through my Fender tube amp...
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Wait a second! Is the TM DR putting out 100 watts?
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100 solid state watts =~= 22 tube watts apparently. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
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Whoops. Cos I can't edit, you can spot a big noob technical error in what I typed above. Have at me!
God rot you, JGO server migration!
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All the more weird because it didn't post my comment at all apparently. Can't be arsed to retype. As you were.
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Their website says "Using a high-performance 100-watt digital power amp to achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp..." They use a vastly over-powered output amp to get the effect of headroom. I have played a TMTR which uses a 200 watt power amp to get the dynamic range of a tube TR and while I don't have vast years of experience playing a TR I have played them enough to know the TMTR does an amazing job on that. We've always known anecdotally that "tube watts" seem to have a different loudness and range from the same "solid state watts." Fender evidently incorporated that into the design of the Tone Master amps. Originally Posted by Tal_175
- Lawson
"Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town
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More reviews:
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ULTIMATE PHOTO BOMB: Check out that SUITE Silvertone 1484 head behind him!!!! Originally Posted by Tal_175
- Lawson
"Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town
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I did, and it brought to mind the nite my 1484 went up in smoke! A hot summer night and 1000 people in attendance. I had to plug into the bass-player's Bassman amp with him! I paid $40 for that amp, and I made $5 for the nite. I was 15 and off to a good start (learning the ups and downs of gigging).
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Awesome story! I have a 1484 head that had all the original tubes, but they seemed a bit tired, so I put new 6L6's in and changed out some preamp tubes. It's a fine sounding amp. I have a Yamaha G100-210 and I plug the dual 10" speakers into the head, and wow that thing can really sing. Or roar. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
- Lawson
"Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town
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Great story. Same thing happened to my 1484. Not a thousand people though. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
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The voltage headroom of 100W over 22W is only 2.13 times. The power amp must never clip, whatever the simulated drive signal given to it. Presumably the real amp can produce transient spikes or whatnot that exceed the nominal peak voltage for 22W. Fortunately, using a class D amp the efficiency can be maintained even when using less than full output, which would not be the case with a conventional class B amp. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The real problem with this sort of kit is getting parts and servicing when something goes wrong. I would guess that servicing will be at the board replacement level and that after a few years a faulty amp would be a write off.
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I played the house amp at a gig today - a Peavey Classic 20W lunchbox head through a 12" cab (I think.) Sounded like a Deluxe Reverb. So... I just need Fender (or Peavey) to a digital version of that and bwahaahahahahaahahahaaaaargghhhh.
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So I tried the Deluxe TM and the Twin TM again. I love the the tone of the Deluxe!
I thought it edged out the Twin by a bit,and was also a bit lighter as well.
For me the ideal would be to have the more powerful 200 watts with the Deluxe 1x12" Combo.
But either way I think Fender has finally done it,Bravo!
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200W into a 1x12? You'd need a skookum speaker. Originally Posted by jads57
So I tried the Deluxe TM and the Twin TM again. I love the the tone of the Deluxe!
I thought it edged out the Twin by a bit,and was also a bit lighter as well.
For me the ideal would be to have the more powerful 200 watts with the Deluxe 1x12" Combo.
But either way I think Fender has finally done it,Bravo!Build bridges, not walls.
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Just want the Clean headroom of the TM Twin and the tone of the Deluxe !
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Then you need one of these:BOSS - WAZA Tube Amp Expander | Tube Amp Expander Originally Posted by jads57
Just want the Clean headroom of the TM Twin and the tone of the Deluxe !
It's an all in one unit. Recording interface, reactive attenuator, cab simulator, IR etc. But it is also a power stage. You can plug your small tube amp, the unit amplifies it further by 100watts while preserving the amps tone. I don't know what the resulting wattage would be with Deluxe. 122? It's class D so probably less, more like 60 tube watts.
You can turn a little amp like a Champ into a powerful gigging amp with this thing.
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New demo, but it's an "official" one from Fender, so...
Amp sounds good. Kotzen, like many, sounds like himself no matter what he plugs into. He has used Marshall Plexis, his own signature "Marshall" from a boutique company, Vibro-Kings, now he has a signature amp from Victory....
He's also very good at shading... he talks ALOT about what HE wants out of an amp, but when talking about the TM Twin DIRECTLY, his comments are limited to features, weight, and he does say once "to perfection, it is emulating an all-tube Fender Twin like I have never heard before." And something about overtones. But otherwise he does not wax poetical about how HE feels about THAT amp... lol
I do wish someone WOULD crank one of these TMs and use the attenuator to bring the volume back down, and then also demonstrate how well it cleans up (while cranked) with the guitar's volume knob.
If they ever release a Princeton, I'm in (never been a Deluxe fan). I'm thinking they won't, because the PR is already "cheap enough", but we'll see....
Last edited by ruger9; 10-16-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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Love the idea of the Waza Tube Expander, but being older and only using amps for gigging purposes. I like traveling as light as possible. I've been using Quilter Aviator amps and have been very pleased.
But these Fenders definitely have that signature tone!
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But $1,300 USD? Lot of bread. Rather than turn your champ into a "powerful gigging amp" you could buy a Twin, either the TM version or a tube one for a lot less. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Why would he?I mean, some people want the moon on a stick. I want good enough to gig. And it is. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Just pointing out that when you are (likely) being PAID by someone for a review (whether by fee, endorsement, or "preferred treatment"), you have to take that into consideration with said review. Originally Posted by christianm77
It was the same when Jim Campilongo did a video review of the PRRI... he was very careful to not say anything like "it sounds like an old one" or "I would gig with this tomorrow", or anything... and that was tube vs tube. It's just the nature of the business.
That being said, I'm not criticizing either reviewer. I think the reissues are fine amps, and while I haven't played a TM, the early returns are saying Fender has indeed come up with something really good.
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I haven’t tried one yet...but a twin that never needs new tubes, probably won’t fail from a hard jolt, is utterly dependable, and weighs 1/3 of what the original weighs is worth a grand...
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