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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    my Celestion G12H-75 and Jensen Jet Tornado speakers sound almost exactly the same 60+ hours of loud playing later than they did when they were new. When people speak of speaker break-in what they are really experiencing is psycho-acoustic perception.
    Disagree 100%. But we are are entitled to our opinions.

    And keep in mind: this is coming from a tube snob who now plays a solid state amp alot of the time. I don't prescribe to dogma. I listen with my ears, not my eyes.

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  3. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9 View Post
    Disagree 100%. But we are are entitled to our opinions.

    And keep in mind: this is coming from a tube snob who now plays a solid state amp alot of the time. I don't prescribe to dogma. I listen with my ears, not my eyes.
    The entire point of psycho-acoustics is that you cannot say what you are hearing. It's actually a brain-related phenomenon. It's not something you consciously choose to do. It's been tested over and over. It's not new-agey talk. Speaker-breakin is, unfortunately.

    Here's my question to the folks who believe in speaker break in. If speakers change so radically when they break in, why is it universally accepted that in 100% of the cases, the speakers sound Better when they break in? It doesn't make sense from a physics and logic standpoint. If it made such a difference, statistically speaking, 50% of the time people would be unhappy once it broke in.

    NONE of my speakers sound any different years later than they sounded new. And weber is selling snake oil.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Although I suppose you could also say - if you are driving why not use a real deluxe? (Ok twin is difficult even if you are driving haha)
    In Chicago, driving to the gig might still mean a six block walk
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

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  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    no, that's not what I'm saying at all. Quite the opposite in fact. These new amps the ability to dial in the preamp gain and then utilize the attenuator to simulate the power tube distortion (all in the digital domain). At that point, the signal is converted to analog and sent to the class D power amp.

    After the signal is converted to analog, every other modeler that I know of allows you to set the level control to maximize the output to the power amp. So for example, if my "sweet spot" is that modeled volume on 3 and the modeled power amp on 10, i could increase the level control so that my power amp is able to amplify the signal and get maximum power out of the power amp.

    On the tone master, this isn't possible. IOW, if you have the volume on 3, you will be getting approximately 30% of the rated power of the class D amp.
    But... on the originals, this was done with one knob: the volume knob. And that is, if I'm not mistaken, exactly how these new TM amps work. An attenuator, which attenuates the CLEAN SS POWER AMP , was "Added".... it's like taking a tube DR, micing it, and sending that signal into a clean SS power amp for re-amping. The attenuator IS that "master volume". The preamp AND "tube" power amp gain on the TMs is controlled with one knob. So, if your tube DR's "sweet spot" is at 7, then dial the TM DR up to 7. (supposed to be) the same thing. THEN put the overall volume (not gain) wherever you want it. that sounds perfect to me, at least if you are trying to DUPLICATE the originals... it's like adding a master volume that actually works to the originals. Not a PPIMV, not power scaling the power tubes, an actual VOLUME control to the originals.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    And weber is selling snake oil.


    You're one of those people who just HAVE to be right, or your ego is bruised, aren't you? Forgive my disagreement, but Ted Weber was "selling snake oil"? Confirmation bias is not your friend.

    Have a nice time NOT enjoying the new Fender TM series.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    Here's my question to the folks who believe in speaker break in. If speakers change so radically when they break in, why is it universally accepted that in 100% of the cases, the speakers sound Better when they break in?
    .
    That's not what I think. I said they change. And they do. Better or worse? Perhaps neither... perhaps just different. Why do you think 70-year-old Jensens don't sound like brand-new ones? I mean, after all... speakers DON'T CHANGE, right?

    If speakers DON'T CHANGE, why do people get them reconed (because they are "tired", not blown)? More psycho-acoustics?

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    In Chicago, driving to the gig might still mean a six block walk
    And sometimes.... stairs.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    This brief review on TDPRI is damning:

    I played the Fender Tone Master amps today | Page 16 | Telecaster Guitar Forum
    OK, I played the Tone Master Twin Reverb at GC today, and as luck would have it, there was a TRRI sitting right beside it. I was able to a/b them.

    My take...I could probably use the Tone Master on a gig and be ok with it. It sounds pretty good. But I'm sorry, it does NOT sound like a Twin Reverb with tubes. In full power mode, I cranked the TM to 8, and it was just somewhat loud, the Twin I never got past about 3.5. I tried some of the other power settings and they seemed to do what they are supposed to do.

    The TM did not have the sparkle of the TRRI. I tried turning up the treble, turning on the bright switch. It just doesn't have it. It did not have the rich bottom to it either, was just a bit flat.

    I'm confident that in a blind test (live, not on the internet) I could DEFINITELY tell the difference. And it's not a small difference.

    I was disappointed, but not really surprised, this has been my experience with ss and modeling amps. As a backline amp, I'd be ok with it, but I wouldn't buy it.
    Did this reviewer know about the knob on the back for setting the output "wattage" emulation? That would account for not being able to get significant volume out of it. Just curious.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    In Chicago, driving to the gig might still mean a six block walk
    Ok! So that thing about outside of NYC doesn’t matter is actually not true...

    Can be spotty in London too.

  11. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9 View Post
    But... on the originals, this was done with one knob: the volume knob. And that is, if I'm not mistaken, exactly how these new TM amps work. An attenuator, which attenuates the CLEAN SS POWER AMP , was "Added".... it's like taking a tube DR, micing it, and sending that signal into a clean SS power amp for re-amping. The attenuator IS that "master volume". The preamp AND "tube" power amp gain on the TMs is controlled with one knob. So, if your tube DR's "sweet spot" is at 7, then dial the TM DR up to 7. (supposed to be) the same thing. THEN put the overall volume (not gain) wherever you want it. that sounds perfect to me, at least if you are trying to DUPLICATE the originals... it's like adding a master volume that actually works to the originals. Not a PPIMV, not power scaling the power tubes, an actual VOLUME control to the originals.
    No, the attenuator does not attenuate the clean power amp. The attenuator on the tone master is working in the digital domain. There is no advantage and quite a few disadvantages to attempt to attenuate a class D amplifier.

    If you were duplicating the original, you wouldn't be adding an attenuator and line level / cabinet simulator output.

    And I agree they are attempting to replicate the originals in some way but IMO, it's a fail to not have a level control after the last D/A conversion (other than the attenuator which goes only in one direction)

  12. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok! So that thing about outside of NYC doesn’t matter is actually not true...

    Can be spotty in London too.
    i rehearse quite a bit at one of the local colleges where it's hit or miss whether you can park in front of the music building. I'd say you have about a 10% chance of getting a good spot. So then, it's a 1 block walk and many stairs at the end of that walk. So no-thank-you to carrying a deluxe. My raezer's edge sol is doable at 27lbs but a deluxe is heavier than that.

  13. #112

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    I think this is similar to the power scaling approach of the Katana: crank master volume, set preamp gain to desired level of breakup/saturation, then set the power scaling option to set final volume. I don’t recall what the exact power scaling options are on the TM Deluxe Reverb are, but the net effect would be basically having a 1/5/10/22 (or whatever they may be) watt amp that would exhibit breakup characteristics accurate to the original amp no matter the final output of the amp. So, yeah. It’s not gonna be possible to goose the output so that you have the same maximum output for all preamp gain levels.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    i rehearse quite a bit at one of the local colleges where it's hit or miss whether you can park in front of the music building. I'd say you have about a 10% chance of getting a good spot. So then, it's a 1 block walk and many stairs at the end of that walk. So no-thank-you to carrying a deluxe. My raezer's edge sol is doable at 27lbs but a deluxe is heavier than that.
    Website says the new tonemaster deluxe is 23lbs (I say 10kg) if it sounds good .... and it may not sound as good as the real thing from the video I’ve seen, but worth a try, that makes me go hmmmmm.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    No, the attenuator does not attenuate the clean power amp. The attenuator on the tone master is working in the digital domain. There is no advantage and quite a few disadvantages to attempt to attenuate a class D amplifier.
    Who cares if it's in the digital domain? It's just controlling clean volume. It has nothing to do with the modeling part of the amp. The WHOLE POINT is that the "tube" power amp characteristics have already been accounted for with the VOLUME knob on the front panel, just like the original tube versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    And I agree they are attempting to replicate the originals in some way but IMO, it's a fail to not have a level control after the last D/A conversion (other than the attenuator which goes only in one direction)

    If, as I suspect/assume, the "tube" power amp characteristics have already been included in the front panel volume knob, again- just like the original- there's no purpose being served by what you suggest. If you want something OTHER than a DR or Twin, great. But if you want the SAME PERFORMANCE/FUNCTION of a tube DR/Twin, just at a lower volume (e.g., you want a Twin on 7 but at many fewer decibels), what Fender did is exactly right. They wanted to make SS/modeling versions of iconic amps, and they did that, it looks like to me. What you suggest has nothing to do with the original version, in tone. On the TM amps, it's ALL in the volume knob, just like on the tube originals - they have no master volume, as you know. So the "attenuator" or whatever you want to call it- acts AS a master volume, AFTER getting the preamp AND POWER AMP characteristics with the volume knob... one more time: just like the originals.

    Think of it this way, conceptually: inside the chassis, Fender put an entire DR, with a "silent speaker". They also added a SS clean power amp. They mic'ed the DR silent speaker (lol), then sent THAT back into the SS clean power amp they ADDED TO the DR. They are able to this because the whole thing is solid state. I can't vouch for how close they SOUND to the originals, but the intent and execution seems perfect to me, if what they were trying to achieve was "cranked tube amp tone at lower volumes", without using an external device like an attenuator. THAT is what the masses would want... who wouldn't love to be able to "crank" a Twin, without having fillings fall out? Mission accomplished.

    As for the cab sim and direct out, they did that because they could: it's a SS amp. Why not? It could very handy in a gig situation, especially when isolation in the mains is wanted.

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    my Celestion G12H-75 and Jensen Jet Tornado speakers sound almost exactly the same 60+ hours of loud playing later than they did when they were new. When people speak of speaker break-in what they are really experiencing is psycho-acoustic perception.
    No thanks, it's too early in the day for me!

    Build bridges, not walls.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    No, the attenuator does not attenuate the clean power amp. The attenuator on the tone master is working in the digital domain. There is no advantage and quite a few disadvantages to attempt to attenuate a class D amplifier.

    If you were duplicating the original, you wouldn't be adding an attenuator and line level / cabinet simulator output.

    And I agree they are attempting to replicate the originals in some way but IMO, it's a fail to not have a level control after the last D/A conversion (other than the attenuator which goes only in one direction)
    This is the way I understand the flow in this amp:

    1. input-> 2. A/D-> 3. model of pre-amp section of (including tone stack, volume knob, and reverb and vibrator)-> 4. PI section model -> 5. Power amp section model -> 6. PT model -> 7. D/A -> 8. Class D amp -> 9. Speaker(s)

    Where do think the power amp attenuator is in this chain? Where do you think it should be? Why does it matter?

    John

  18. #117

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    Wow! All this conjecture about a new amp! How many have played one?
    Reading this has pretty much turned me off to the idea of even trying one. Not that I need one.

    My Princeton Reverb, old and worked on, with efficient transformers, and a GREAT Eminence Legend 10in. speaker, is too loud. Great tone but, when it's cooking, I have people asking me to turn it down. I would like a lighter amp than this one, but damn, is it worth all the thinking and scrutinizing?

    I just want to go and practice my playing and expression.

  19. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack View Post
    Wow! All this conjecture about a new amp! How many have played one?
    Reading this has pretty much turned me off to the idea of even trying one. Not that I need one.

    My Princeton Reverb, old and worked on, with efficient transformers, and a GREAT Eminence Legend 10in. speaker, is too loud. Great tone but, when it's cooking, I have people asking me to turn it down. I would like a lighter amp than this one, but damn, is it worth all the thinking and scrutinizing?

    I just want to go and practice my playing and expression.
    Well here is an idea. May be next time you want to just "practice your playing and expression" refrain from reading long threads about amps that you don't need and don't feel obligated to take your precious practice time to share with the world how you don't want to buy the amp and just want to practice your expression. Instead just practice. Ignore all this.

  20. #119

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    At the end of the day it's if sounds great on different gigs. For me Quilter Aviator amps sound really good on all my gigs. And I'm sure the 200 watt Tone Blocks would sound maybe even better.
    So until someone can come up with a more portable great Loud Clean platform,I'm sticking with Quilter.

  21. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9 View Post
    Who cares if it's in the digital domain? It's just controlling clean volume. It has nothing to do with the modeling part of the amp. The WHOLE POINT is that the "tube" power amp characteristics have already been accounted for with the VOLUME knob on the front panel, just like the original tube versions.
    I was answering a question from someone who thought the attenuator was attenuating the class D power amp.

  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I was answering a question from someone who thought the attenuator was attenuating the class D power amp.
    I don't think anybody in this thread said attenuetor was attenuating the class D amp. Several people said It WASN'T doing that.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-17-2019 at 08:28 AM.

  23. #122
    Guitar Center seems to have them in stock now. For those who live in the USA may be able to try them in local stores.
    Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb 100W 2x12 Guitar Combo Amp Black | Guitar Center

  24. #123

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    I'm going to try out the Twin, but keep my credit cards at home, just in case, and wait for them to show up used.
    Build bridges, not walls.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Yeah, you can't really gig with a drummer and use a princeton reverb and stay clean...unless we're talking real soundman/everybody mic'd up kind of situation...which, I don't know about you, but...
    I like the sound of my Headstrong Princeton-clone so much (had it for over 10 years now) that I'm considering to test it with one of these new Boss Tube Amp Expanders for situations that require more (clean) volume, maybe with another cab but I already have a Celestion Gold in my amp which shouldn't burn up if I'm careful.... Would be an expensive experiment, but so far I couldn't really live for more that a few months with any modeling amp, even with the more expensive ones.
    (And I could record with it silently when hooking up the Boss thing).

  26. #125

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    Okay I tried out the Twin version earlier today for a bit. I played a cheaper Ibanez thinline 335 guitar through it plugged straight in. I was surprised how good it sounded both with the attenuated set low as well as high.
    One suggestion to be able to run the attenuate different on each channel. That way you could overdrive the amp as well as have Clean Tone.

    It really was lightweight as well. I wouldn't rush out to buy a new one,but secondhand I would definitely consider it!

    Jack Z this might be your perfect Fender.

  27. #126

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    Sounds pretty good to me in this context:


  28. #127

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    Anything sounds good with reverb added to fatten it up. They remind me of...the niggardly 25W into 8ohms piddling Vox MV50 Clean, itself a take on the Twin Reverb, only smaller!

  29. #128

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    These guys seem seriously impressed... and while you can certainly hear a tonal difference in the recording, the guys in the room seem shocked and surprised at how close Fender came.... not only with how the amps sound, but how they FEEL and REACT as well.... especially when they turn them UP...


  30. #129

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    These videos really don't represent the tone very well. You need to actually play one.At least that's what I found after really trying it in person.

  31. #130
    One more youtube review:

  32. #131

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    Bought the Tone Master Deluxe Reverb three days ago, played two gigs since. Both gigs were rock-style and required amp presence and volume. The TMDR met my expectations beautifully. Set the power level one notch down to 12W, the volume at 6, bass 5, and treble 5. Used an array of Boss pedals that all sounded great. At the end of the show, put my gig-bag on my back, picked up the amp with one hand, slipped the pedal board under the same arm, picked up a mic stand bag with the other hand and walked away comfortably back to my car. Easy-peasy.

    I had two Fender tube amps I wasn't using because they weighed too much. I traded them in and after the 10 percent discount from GC, walked out paying $150 and trading 100 lbs of amp(s) for an very doable 23 lbs.

    I still have my Henriksen Bud, AER compact and a vintage Roland JC55 for other gigs, but the TMDR seems the ticket for me for the more robust gigs.

    And during the gig last night, I set the amp on it's side for space reasons -- something I wouldn't have done with an actual tube amp. (Also, makes a nice stand for your beer this way... I know I live dangerously.)
    Attached Images Attached Images Have you tried the Tone Masters yet?-img_5215-jpg 

  33. #132
    Reverb released a new blind test. Though I'm not sure know how meaningful youtube blind tests are:
    Video: Fender Tone Master Deluxe vs. Original Tube | Reverb News

  34. #133

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    Where are the manufactured?
    Keith

  35. #134
    I think cab and tolex in Mexico. Amp in China.
    Fender released a "making of" video:

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Reverb released a new blind test. Though I'm not sure know how meaningful youtube blind tests are:
    Video: Fender Tone Master Deluxe vs. Original Tube | Reverb News
    The two sounded a bit different to me -- #1 seemed brighter and more scooped; # 2 seemed a little more mid-rangey and a little less obviously distorted on the louder settings. The boings, sproings, and pings on reverb on #1 seemed exaggerated. With several of these model vs original test videos I've seen, the one that seemed a bit more subdued turned out to be the tube amp, so I guessed #2, which turned out to be right, but the two were very close, and it was really just a guess.

    John

    .

  37. #136
    We'll find out soon if TM's are just the new cool toys until the next one comes around or we are truly experiencing tubexit (or should I say valvexit). If latter, looks like valvexit may even come sooner than the certain other "exit" if you know what I mean.

  38. #137

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    It’s ok, Andy’s on the case


  39. #138
    Looks like it fooled Tyler Bryant (whoever he is):

  40. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Looks like it fooled Tyler Bryant (whoever he is):
    He's a rock musician, he does a lot of Fender commercials, Youtube videos, promotions, etc..

  41. #140

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    You really need to try it in person. That definitely changed my opinion to a positive one. The videos aren't really good representations of the amp
    I really want to try a Twin on a gig sometime. I'm currently gigging with Quilter Aviator amps and am quite happy,so no rush.

  42. #141

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    The one I'd be after is the twin too.
    Also gigging with a Quilter Aviator Twin Ten. The Quilter is excellent but the ToneMaster twin (if anything like a 'real' twin) would be great... especially if the tremolo and reverb is good.

  43. #142

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    I just tried the Tone Master Deluxe Reverb - only played through it for 10 or 15 minutes, I thought it sounded great. I'm very tempted.

  44. #143

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    Yes, the deluxe that is lighter than my prri by 5kg and plugs into the desk is .... a nice idea

  45. #144

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    Honestly, the only BAD reviews I've read so far are from guys who are "old school biased" ("if it's not tubes, it sucks, change my mind"), and guys who haven't actually PLAYED one, just watched videos.

    Every person who has actually played one is seriously impressed, with at least one pro saying he PREFERS the TM Deluxe, thinks it sounds better than the DRRI.

    If Roland has cracked the code (and they have), maybe Fender has too....
    I just spent 2 hours A/B/C-ing the Roland Artist, Fender Supersonic 22, and Bad Cat Cub 40R.... and I dare anyone to be able to tell which one is "not the tube amp", if blindfolded.

    Have you tried the Tone Masters yet?-tubes-jpg

  46. #145

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    I prefered the tonemaster it in this video. I own a 65 Deluxe so that's saying a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s ok, Andy’s on the case


  47. #146

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    I can't tell which is which. If they did nail it and it's a 50/50 chance of guessing the tube amp correctly, then 1/2 the folks will say "see I knew I could tell the difference, it's pretty obvious to me". Humans!
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  48. #147

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    I've probably owned every type of amp imaginable. Including Dumble OD SPECIALS. There were a couple of tube amps like an old Gibson that sounded so good, as well as a Marshall that was touch sensitive.
    And I think Mesa Boogie makes wonderful amps as well.

    But to be honest my Quilter Aviator amps and now the Tonemaster Twin I tried give me the perfect Clean Tone I look for in an amp. The pedals are so good these days any overdrive,chorus,delay, is available to compliment my basic tone.

    The really wonderful thing is the weight,portability, direct out, and consistency of tone at every venue. Due to not having to depend on voltage fluctuations at different places I play. Also no more tube biasing or failures especially on the gig, OUCH!!!

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny View Post
    I prefered the tonemaster it in this video. I own a 65 Deluxe so that's saying a lot.
    Me too.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny View Post
    I prefered the tonemaster it in this video. I own a 65 Deluxe so that's saying a lot.
    I also preferred the Tonemaster in that video. But:

    A) Compressed Youtube videos are very different sounding than a real world comparison

    B) I had a 65 Deluxe reissue and did not like it (so it does not concern me that I preferred the Tonemaster)

    C) I wonder which I would prefer in a real world setting to the Tonemaster vs. a vintage original? I am betting the vintage original. I have two vintage tube amps that scratch that itch for me and are both carry friendly to me still (and I am in my early 60's). I think that I have enough tubes hoarded away to cover my needs for the rest of my playing days with my two tube amps.

    But I think it is great that we have a new choice that utilizes modern technology.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    C) I wonder which I would prefer in a real world setting to the Tonemaster vs. a vintage original? I am betting the vintage original. I have two vintage tube amps that scratch that itch for me and are both carry friendly to me still (and I am in my early 60's). I think that I have enough tubes hoarded away to cover my needs for the rest of my playing days with my two tube amps.

    But I think it is great that we have a new choice that utilizes modern technology.
    Well, I can offer this: I recently replaced my tube amp (a Fender Supersonic 60, which I love for loud applications) with a Roland Blues Cube Artist. It's been 4 rehearsals now (LOUD), and I can honestly say, I don't miss the tube amp one bit. I also feel no difference in playing the 2, at least not in a loud 2-guitar rock band. The only thing I "miss" about the 60-watt tube amp is the WEIGHT!!!!

    The same at home: Supersonic 22 ... and honestly, I love the 22. But I'm not sure I'd miss it. I'm not selling yet (I AM selling the 60), but it's quite possible... I'll have to live with the Roland awhile longer, but it's looking very good so far.