The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Hi everyone.

    I'm considering splurging on my first archtop, and would like some suggestions / guidance.

    What I'm having in mind is something with a mounted pickup, and preferably somewhere loosely in the ballpark of 16" lower bout and "3 depth.

    Tonewise, I'm interested in seeking out something that retains some acoustic/woody qualities in the amplified tone. In contrast with, say, newer ES-175s, which to my ear fall more on the 'electric' side of the spectrum as far as archtop sounds go (a fantastic sound; just not what I'm looking for).

    But since tone labels are often ambiguous, I guess examples are better. Julian Lage's archtop sound is sort of the 'ideal' tone I'd be aiming for (though obviously no small part of his tone is in his fingers):



    A lot of Jim Hall and Lage Lund's stuff also constitute examples of what I'd consider woody / acoustic amplified sounds.

    I'm guessing recording technique and sound volume also play integral parts in achieving this sound? Julian seems very consistent with putting a condenser mic in front of his archtop. Lower volumes will also allow the acoustic sound from the guitar to blend more with the amplified tone.

    What factors of the instrument are decisive for whether the acoustic sound shines through? My impression is that spruce tops may facilitate an acoustic qualities; and as far as laminates go, thinner tops will sound more acoustic than thicker tops?

    In terms budget, it'd be nice – but not an absolute – to stay within $3k (used is fine). Some options that have crossed my mind are the Fender D'Aquisto Elite or the Eastman Pisano (AR680). Saving longer and going for something in the used Sadowsky / Benedetto Bravo price range is also an option.

    Do any of you have experience with guitars that might hit this general sound territory? Or thoughts about what qualities about the guitar that are important to achieving that kind of acoustic quality?

    Thanks.

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  3. #2

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    Eastman 680 is a good one. I will say, however, that the acoustic tone is very bright. This actually works well for the blended sound because the acoustic properties cut through the amplified electric tone, but playing it acoustically is not the most fulfilling experience because of the brightness.



    Sadowsky Jim Hall is also good, even though it's laminate.



    Finally, I think this comes down more to recording/amplification methods really, than an "acoustic sounding archtop". Even Miles Okazaki's 70's laminate ES 175 with a big CC Pickup (I've played one, i know they don't have much acoustic volume) sounds very acoustic in his solo Monk album.



    I think the best recommendation here is to use a condenser mic with your guitar when you need it to be loud. Julian Lage did this at stage volume. Lage Lund does not, which is why his performance tone tends to be very different from his studio/lesson tone. At quiet volumes, you already get this effect when playing any archtop, but you need to amplify the acoustic properties if you want them to carry through in a louder environment. That said, some pickups do a better job than others at picking up what we consider to be "acoustic" qualities. These qualities we refer to as "acoustic" tend to be: low compression and reproduction of high frequencies. <- This can be achieved with low output pickups. I think the Dimarzio 36th Anniversary pickup does this fairly well as far as humbuckers go. Single coils tend to do this much better, if you can stand the noise. As far as single coils go, my favorites are: Charlie Christian style, DeArmond (FHC and RC), and Dynasonic (aka DeArmond 2000). P90s are also great but they are much less acoustic and more focused on mid range frequencies.
    Last edited by omphalopsychos; 08-19-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  4. #3

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    Is it also the case that an unpotted pickup will be more microphonic and capture more of the ambient acoustic sound than a potted pickup?

  5. #4

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    Keep in mind also that what you hear in you ears when playing will be very different from what an audience hears or what comes out in the mix in recording.....

  6. #5

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    You might consider a Heritage H575, Eagle or Golden Eagle. They are all solid wood and typically have great acoustic as well as electric tone.

  7. #6

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    Usually solid carved woods make for more acoustic instruments. Usually a better pickup. Armstrong hand wound 12 poles are nice. Thing is, there are a lot of recordings made with an ES175, not a very acoustic instrument, that sound acoustic and woody. So while you guitar shop you might consider:


    - Good EQ. Amp EQ's usually suck. Something like an Empress ParaEQ is a lot better. The more acoustic you go, the more it matters.

    - Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) amplification. Plug a flat top acoustic into a Fender Twin and you'll find that while it's a great jazz amp, it's not so great an acoustic amp. Still, some prefer what a guitar amp does to their sound and a lot of woody sounding recordings have been made with regular guitar amps. Because....

    - Processing because a FRFR guitar setup can sound overly sterile. In addition to good EQ. A tube preamp or something like an Joyo American pedal can make a big difference in how pleasing the sound is without taking away acoustic/woody tone.



    Acoustic/woody is a slippery slope. Good luck..

  8. #7

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    With that budget, there are many options for you!

    There's a nice Holst on Reverb right now ... (drool!)

  9. #8

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    That Holst guitar is a STEAL !!! Ok, I'm biased re lam-top archtops , having used such guitars by Roger Borys, Victor Baker and Bryant Trenier but those cost considerably more.
    In my experience the tonal difference between a solid and a laminated top on an archtop guitar just about disappears on most stages when there is a drummer and one or more horns in the band. When you're recording with a good mic both in front of the amp and the guitar it's another story. I remember wondering about Metheny's "new" acoustic/electric sound on an early quartet recording with Brecker, DeJohnette etc. and then I saw that there was a mic in front of his beat up old ES-175 ...
    Again, IMHO you can't go wrong with that Holst guitar on reverb and then there is always the option of swapping out the pickup.
    BTW, Julian Lage plays a lam-top 16" guitar made by Linda Manzer, a very similar guitar to those above.



    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    With that budget, there are many options for you!

    There's a nice Holst on Reverb right now ... (drool!)

  10. #9

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    That Holst looks very nice.

    If I was testing the waters of the archtop world I would go for the Painter which is on Reverb for under US$1,600...really hard to go wrong at that price.

  11. #10

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    In my experience, lightly built archtops, regardless of laminate or solid sound more acoustic. Even not so deep ones. Typically any guitar with a floater is specifically designed for it's acoustic amplified qualities. However there are even built-in double humbucker laminate guitars with good acoustic tones like some vintage ES 175's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    Thing is, there are a lot of recordings made with an ES175, not a very acoustic instrument, that sound acoustic and woody. So while you guitar shop you might consider:
    Yes there are ES 175 recordings that sound acoustic but I disagree that ES 175's are all "not very acoustic". 50's and early 60's ES 175s (the instruments in most iconic ES 175 recordings) as well as 59 reissues are very acoustic examples.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Yes there are ES 175 recordings that sound acoustic but I disagree that ES 175's are all "not very acoustic". 50's and early 60's ES 175s (the instruments in most iconic ES 175 recordings) as well as 59 reissues are very acoustic examples.
    But Tal.. they don't go zinggg. They go thunk.

  13. #12

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    ES-125, as old as possible.

    i suffer a bias on this I admit.

    Mine is very lively, acoustically, and only weighs 5 lbs 1 oz.

  14. #13

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    16" Bill Comins Concert Classic when you can find it used for about $5500 or thereabouts.

    Have Steve Holst make you a 16" carved archtop with a mounted humbucker for about $5000. A new Mark Campellone Standard can be had for about $5000 with no frou frou such as excessive dead shellfish inlays or binding.

    If you are pointing to that Julian Lage video (he appears to be playing a Koentopp in that video) as your touchstone it is worth checking Comins, Holst and Campellone out, in no particular order.

    You can get a new Steve Holst laminated archtop guitar made to your specifications for $3500 today so that used one asking for $2995 does not look like good value although it is a good guitar.

  15. #14

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    Here is another Holst at Gruhns.,

    Gruhn Guitars

  16. #15

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    Julian's playing his Manzer there. Just for fun, she recently sold a 20 year old one:

    Manzer Guitars - Purchase Pre-Owned

    Same model. All laminate, which might help you with your search. Bit of a budget buster at $16K though.

    I think she worked with D'Aquisto, who used some Bory's lam tops AFAIK. I imagine her tops on this model have something in common with Borys, so that might be something to save for. Join the club :-)

  17. #16
    Thanks for the input, guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    ES-125, as old as possible.
    A classic model and probably one of the best deals on the vintage archtop market. Do you mean the non-cutaways? And what age period do you consider preferable?

    I do wonder, though, whether the gritty midrange quality typical of P90s would be sorta at odds with the type of tones I'm aiming for (Julian Lage / Lage Lund territory). But pickups can be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    16" Bill Comins Concert Classic when you can find it used for about $5500 or thereabouts.

    Have Steve Holst make you a 16" carved archtop with a mounted humbucker for about $5000. A new Mark Campellone Standard can be had for about $5000 with no frou frou such as excessive dead shellfish inlays or binding.

    If you are pointing to that Julian Lage video (he appears to be playing a Koentopp in that video) as your touchstone it is worth checking Comins, Holst and Campellone out, in no particular order.
    Some tempting beauties among those names, no doubt. Some of those $5k+ models are starting to push north of my budget, though.

    You think a carved top would be the way to go? I don't live in archtop Mecca exactly, so my experience with hand-made carved tops is sadly rather non-existent. Hence I don't really know what to expect from such guitars.

    The Julian Lage tone I'm drooling over is his sound with the laminated Manzer. It seems to be particularly resonant for a laminate, though, and he consistently puts a condenser in front of it both live and in the studio. So perhaps a carved top would be a safer route into this sonic territory? Here are perhaps some better examples than the one I posted earlier, as you can see the guitar / setup here:




    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Julian's playing his Manzer there. Just for fun, she recently sold a 20 year old one:

    Manzer Guitars - Purchase Pre-Owned

    Same model. All laminate, which might help you with your search. Bit of a budget buster at $16K though.

    I think she worked with D'Aquisto, who used some Bory's lam tops AFAIK. I imagine her tops on this model have something in common with Borys, so that might be something to save for. Join the club :-)
    Boryses look wonderful and seem to me to be in the same 'family' as the Manzer indeed. Most guys who play them sound great too. Larry Koonse comes to mind.

  18. #17

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    Swingstring,

    I'm thinking non-cutaway, by far the most common.
    With my limitations there ain't no money too far up the neck anyway.

    I would never endorse changing out a classic, original P90 on ANY guitar,
    but I can't begrudge you suggesting it.

    To me, Lage's tone in the included clips does retain a lot of acoustic character
    but in a distinctly humbucking sort of way. I don't play out and so can indulge my preference
    for single coils, even floaters (gasp!)

    But, I also don't perceive P90's as being inherently too gritty. String choice, amp & E.Q. might make a
    difference in your perceptions.

    A friend of mine is an expert former pro guitarist.
    He's got an unnatural ability to control his sound with both hands & can do hybrid picking.
    Gawd, I hate that guy, but he is beautiful.
    I wish to suggest that a lot, not all, of what you hear in these clips is the way he is doing it.

    There is also the chance that, in my ignorance and ancientude, I am deaf to what you are hearing.

    Hope you get a great guitar.

  19. #18

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    As someone who has been on a couple year search/ money saving venture to find an archtop that can be played in a club setting, and retains an acoustic quality Daan Kleijns Campellone seems to be the most promising prospect. While I understand that at certain volumes it does sound more electric, it still retains a brightness that I associate with an acoustic sound. Furthermore it seems on his new record he didn't mic the guitar and it sound pretty acoustic most the time, or a nice balance of acoustic/ electric tone overall. Obviously the volume in these videos helps it sound so acoustic, but I can't help but love how fat the sound is as sometimes an acoustic sound is still thin.




    and one more at a louder volume:
    Its more electric here, but hes with a full band in a big club, and I still think it sounds like an actual archtop guitar...Solo at 4:15


    Hope to learn more from this thread!

  20. #19

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    Daan Kleijn plays a Westville Unity now. Westville would be another brand to consider.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevus
    Daan Kleijn plays a Westville Unity now. Westville would be another brand to consider.
    Yes he does play westville now though I believe its the aruba model similar to JVR, and from what I've heard it sounds good. Thus far the videos that on youtube are not the best quality though so I'm looking forward to hearing how it sounds on a better recording!

  22. #21

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    Indeed, it is the Aruba model, but with solid spruce top and CC pickup. It's a great guitar, I have tried it a year ago, but it's not the cheapest.

  23. #22
    I recently started paying attention out another player that seems to be aiming for sort of the same sonic landscape as pre-tele Lage: Chico Pinheiro. Excellent player and worth a listen. He seems to rely on what looks like a kind of clip-on condenser to achieve his preferred mix of electric and acoustic tone live. Or on other occasions, low volumes that allow the acoustic tone to blend.

    Micing the guitar seems to be the common trend for a lot of the guys that catch my ear, so I'm starting to become convinced that this is a bigger factor for getting that general sound than anything specific about the instrument. Then again, they all play nice, resonant instruments too, which surely helps.




    Here's Lage Lund getting a nice mix of acoustic and electric qualities as well, once more with a condenser in front of the guitar.


  24. #23

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    Chico isn't playing a laminate, it's a solid carved Benedetto Bravo Elite. $15k base price. It's a guitar I'd really love to have, but it will have to wait until I hit the big lottery jackpot. I guess I need to start buying tickets. Maybe the lack of tickets has something to do with my failure to win so far.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swingstring
    Micing the guitar seems to be the common trend for a lot of the guys that catch my ear, so I'm starting to become convinced that this is a bigger factor for getting that general sound than anything specific about the instrument.
    ^This. I mean you want a guitar with a nice acoustic tone, but you’re not going to get that sound in the studio or on stage without separately micing the guitar. The alternative is to play at a low enough volume to let the soundboard rather than the pickup do the talking.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    You might consider a Heritage H575, Eagle or Golden Eagle. They are all solid wood and typically have great acoustic as well as electric tone.
    As a 575 owner (and make no mistake--i love this guitar), I must say it doesnt do much acoustically.

    Heres an old video of a much hairier me playing it unplugged: