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But seriously folks, in another thread I talked about replacing the Beta 10A (97db sensitivity) in a JazzAmp 110 with a Ragin Cajun (100db sensitivity). The Ragin Cajun is not only 3db more efficient, but it also has a more prominent upper-midrange. The amp is now subjectively as loud when the volume is set at 10:00 o'clock as it previously was when the volume was set at 11:00 o'clock.
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12-12-2012 07:00 PM
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[QUOTE=BigDaddyLoveHandles;277593]The whole notion of "twice as loud" is a Are two people singing twice as loud as one person singing? Is a 2x12" cab twice as loud as a 1x12" cab with the same speaker model?
Yes, volume is very subjective.........But, two people singing is 6db louder than one. If the amp can double its power output(!), a 2x12" is 6db louder than a 1x12".
maggles
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Nope .......... twice the power
Originally Posted by Little Jay
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[quote=maggles55;278001]
unless the two people singing together are Lou Reed and Bob Dylan and the one on his own was Pavarotti.......... Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Hmm.... I might have turned it around then.... alright, yes that was it I think: twice the power doesn't make an amp twice as loud, but only 3dB louder..... to be twice as loud the amp would need to have 10 times the power. Is that correct? Sorry for the confusion.... (probably just created some more.... ). I should stick to playing guitar...... Originally Posted by pingu
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No worries! That's the way I've always understood it. That's why a stereo power amp with 400w per channel is not necessarily overkill: the 400 watts provides clean headroom to briefly reproduce something 'twice as loud' as 40 watts. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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I think the problem comes from what you mean as "loud". How do you measure loudness? Which unit ? If I have a unit of measure for loudness then I understand what it means doubling loudness. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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I always understood that increasing the power from 50W to 100W (doubling it) does not double the overall volume (measured in dB) but increases it with 3dB. To double the volume (measured in dB) you would need to increase power (measured in watts) ten times (1000% increase). Originally Posted by Jazz_175
That’s why a 100W Twin does not produce twice as much dB as a 50W amp, but is only 3 dB louder.
But I was obviously wrong in stating that going from a 98dB speaker to a 101dB speaker makes an amp seem twice as ‘loud’.
(Yeah, I know, I should stay out of this, I'm no technician, nor a scientist......)
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Little Jay - you're not wrong - Increasing the sens of a speaker by 3 db is the same as doubling the power of the amp. That's why putting an efficient speaker into and efficient cab is such a winner. 3db gain from better speaker + 3 db gain from better design cab. If nothing else it gives you a ton of headroom.
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but why the Princeton mod of cramming a 12" speaker into a cabinet designed for a 10". I agree that stock Princeton speakers can break up too quickly, but I fixed that in my '70 Princeton and Princeton Reissue by putting in a Jensen C10n in each - louder, more low end, and more headroom. If I wanted a 12" I would just use an extension cabinet designed for a 12".
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I think it is probably to do with using a known speaker that just happens to be too big. However there are so many choices there are quite a lot of variables with 10" chasiss's. However a look at the Eminence guitar range quickly tells you there are more 12" speakers out the than 10". The bigger speakers work well in a solo gig - maybe even a 15" - but the 10" cuts through better in the mix when in a band - the bass player will be doing those walking lines so no need for you to be overly bassy.
Last edited by ChrisDowning; 12-20-2012 at 03:39 AM.
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I much prefer a 12 to a 10 in a band context. If it's too bassy you must nave the tools to take care of it - amp's preamp or eq pedal.
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I agree. I've always used 12"s. But I wouldn't want to put people off the new 10"s that are so much more advanced than the traditional 12"s we have used for decades. The new neos are offering designers much more lattitude to design in features and tones that just were not possible only ten years ago.
As a 66 year old player and teacher - nothing makes me sound my age more than going off on one about traditional equipment, so I don't! Anyway I don't believe there's anything from back in the 60's we can't build now so who wants to risk ancient equipement on the bandstand. I have no patience with that retro thing - that's like commuters trying to get into the office in a Fort T. Gimmee a break!
Secondly, I want to trade to smaller, lighter neo, high tech single 10"s and 15"s - I'm not into loading the stage with cabs, racks, and wiring. I've matured beyond having to travel in an MPV or a Van. I want easy and simple. My days of wanting to melt the ears of punters has passed. I hope the only retro thing about me is my 1940's volume!
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Yeah I now have two Mambo 10 cabs, very small and practical and they sound really good. But still a big 12 or 212 cab is unbeatable for some things... It's about the right tools for the right gigs I guess.
The thing with 12s is they sound much deeper and bigger than 10s but can be much more unbalanced and hard to tame, in my experience. But if you tame them they are aewsome, specially the EV.
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I think what's been happening to some of those 10" cabs - they've been built so small they restrict how the speaker works. Great if you want that honky blues vibe, but lots of guys are looking for that more airy sound that is always present with an open back 12" cab. I'm going to built one of those Jack 10" cabs that BF has designed and match it up with some heads and see what it's like. In some ways I wish my DLRII was a head, but it does a great job as a combo with the single 12". Still pretty heavy - don't know how you guys lug amps like Twins and Boogies!
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And that, to me, is the reason why people put 12" speakers in Princetons. The Princeton is a perfect size physically, light enough to carry and yet not too small. It's also fabulous sounding. Its only flaw is that it's a tad under-powered for loud clean playing, which is of course what we jazz guitarists want. So we try to max out the Princeton's capabilities in that area: Bigger transformer, different preamp tubes, mods, and of course - the efficient 12" speaker.
If only the Princeton had even 5 more watts! But alas, it does not.
I have a Celestion G12H-100 in my '79 SFPR. It's warm and clean but still doesn't quite get to full band gig levels without breakup. I haven't done any mods other than putting a 12AT7 (or maybe an AU7?) in place of one of the 12AX7 preamp tubes.
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The Headstrong Lil King, a Princeton clone, comes with a more efficient 12" speaker.
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