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  1. #1

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    There's a recent review of a new Celestion speaker: Celestion F12–X200

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Thanks for posting the link. I actually purchased this from Sweetwater about 6 months ago with the promise of a delivery in a couple of weeks but gave up after 2+months of waiting and cancelled the order.

  4. #3

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    Mmm... maybe for the Boss 100watt combo...

  5. #4

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    Confusion about the speaker - is it available to individual customers or OME only? I made an inquiry to a factory rep. in June but have not received an answer yet. For my TOOB line of ultralight cabs, I'd welcome a Neo version, even just 10", so the Kemper freaks would have a truly lightweight stage monitor. Other apps: pedal and lap steel, other high-pitch stringed instruments (incl. violin), harmonica, keyboards.

  6. #5

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    It is available to the general public and I would imagine OEM. Celestion has had some unexplained difficulties in getting this into production but looks like it has been sorted out.

  7. #6

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    I may well be an excellent speaker
    (not talking about that)

    However the idea of it ....I don't get

    Does the thinking go like this ?

    I dig my tube amp but
    I need a more consistent/reliable/controllable way to get that sound ..... So
    I get an amp modeller with an IR of my speaker cab
    I run it into a flat PA or a flat monitor speaker

    hurrah !

    nope .... I now need to run it into one of the above speakers ??
    i don't get it

  8. #7
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    Hahaha yes, I absolutely agree with you!

    “alright, check out our new speaker emulation software! It makes your expensive full range 12” neodymium speaker sound just like the inefficient and underpowered 6” CTS of a Silverface Champ!”
    “Uhm... why don’t you just use a cheap inefficient 6” speaker.....?”
    “Ehm.......”

    Well I guess the reasoning would be they would like to simulate the 6” Champ but also the 4x12 Marshall cab through a single speaker but I think you end up with a compromise that’s close but no cigar.

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  10. #9

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    With an iPad, or other computer in a box pedals, in an FX loop a guitar can generate frequencies beyond what a traditional guitar speaker can reproduce. Some players enjoy exploring those sonic territories.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TedBPhx View Post
    With an iPad, or other computer in a box pedals, in an FX loop a guitar can generate frequencies beyond what a traditional guitar speaker can reproduce. Some players enjoy exploring those sonic territories.
    it doesn't matter because if you end up running it through a regular guitar speaker - i mean the real speaker, not the modeled speaker, you're not getting anything above about 5k. I can see the advantage of the FR speaker for acoustic guitar or slapped bass but it just doesn't make sense for analog guitar amp modeling. The best thing to do IMO is to find a very neutral guitar speaker like an EV12L or Celestion BN300 and use that in an open back cabinet if you want to use speaker modeling. Personally, if I ever get another modeler, I'd just disable the speaker modeler and run it through my guitar cabs.

  12. #11

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    So the idea is to have a speaker emulate a P.A.speaker or even a monitor with a tweeter? Other than the weight isssue, how does this work in an open back cab?

    Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response. I have yet to be as happy with a direct mix as playing with a regular amp rig.

    Even the Hughes Kettner Black Spirit combo uses a Celestion Cream Back 75 12" speaker. Not sure how that can handle 200 watts thought ?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    ...Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response....
    My apologies for going off topic: you and Jack Z with his speaker swap for the Jensen are making me a little nervous while I wait for my BlockDock 12 to arrive. Got that Celestion BN in a closed back Mach2 cab and love it. Hope I like the BlockDock (semi?) open back with the same....

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    So the idea is to have a speaker emulate a P.A.speaker or even a monitor with a tweeter? Other than the weight isssue, how does this work in an open back cab?

    Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response. I have yet to be as happy with a direct mix as playing with a regular amp rig.

    Even the Hughes Kettner Black Spirit combo uses a Celestion Cream Back 75 12" speaker. Not sure how that can handle 200 watts thought ?
    i don't understand your first sentence.

    Regarding the 2nd sentence, I disagree there too. The celestion BN300 has plenty of bass (although I don't like the sound much) and the Jensen Tornado Stealth does too.

    I guess I have no idea what you're saying, lol

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft View Post
    My apologies for going off topic: you and Jack Z with his speaker swap for the Jensen are making me a little nervous while I wait for my BlockDock 12 to arrive. Got that Celestion BN in a closed back Mach2 cab and love it. Hope I like the BlockDock (semi?) open back with the same....
    I personally don't like the BN300 speaker. It's got a bit of a middy sound to me when you are on axis with it. I have 2 blockdock cabs with the jensen tornado stealth neo speaker and it's great. Plenty of bottom.

  16. #15

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    Exactly what I was hoping not to hear Jack. On the bright side, at least I know the fix. TIA if that happens. And maybe another BN for Jads on the loose...

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft View Post
    Exactly what I was hoping not to hear Jack. On the bright side, at least I know the fix. TIA if that happens. And maybe another BN for Jads on the loose...
    Don't take my word for it. Speakers are subjective. I sold my BN300 to a guy here who loves it. Just know that neither the BN300 or the Jensen jet tornado need a closed back cab. They both have tons of bass. When I was using my quilter, I had the bass on zero going through those cabs. Bass on my vintage sound 1x12 (jensen jet) is on 2 and there's plenty of bass. I have to turn the bass down when playing loud.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?
    i had the same question Jack , totally

    read the review of the speaker in the OP
    he does answer that question....
    technically his explanation works for me

    although your experience is of course still valid
    (that IRs into full range cabs don't work convincingly for you)

    i guess the concept works 'well enough' on any
    individual emulation , for players
    that want a few different rig emulations .....
    instantly available at the push of a button
    champ on one song , Marshall on another ,
    Dumble on another etc etc

  19. #18

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    So this is where I must disagree with Jack Z on his opinion. Neodymium speakers absolutely sound better in closed back cabs from my experience. Also the Celestion 12 300 speaker has the right amount of bass for my taste. The Jensen Tornado while a fine speaker, does not produce an abundance of bass. Especially in an open back 1x12" cab.

    I use Quilter Aviator amps for heads as a reference point. As well as a Katana 100 watt head. But have used Mesa Boogies also with Jensen Tornado .
    I'm also talking account for live gigs,different rooms and bands as well.

    Sorry Jack Z, we just have different ears.

  20. #19
    I agree it sounds good in principal but why does a recorded tube amp on various old wes, benson, etc., so so drastically different from what you can get out of the modelers? IMO, it's just industry-speak that is replicated from one reviewer to the next. There's no such thing as "sound in the room". The sound is the sound, period! And why do you need a 20khz HF speaker to replicate different guitar amp speaker cabinets? If you're replicating any guitar speaker, you don't need more than about 6k so the argument just doesn't hold up.

    Regardless of whether you are imitating marshall, dumble or fender, you don't need a FRFR speaker cab. The absolute best modeling tones I've ever heard were from a modeler with the speaker simulator disabled and running through a standard guitar cabinet. Joey Goldstein has written about this many times on the modern jazz guitar forum on facebook. (see my signature)

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    i had the same question Jack , totally

    read the review of the speaker in the OP
    he does answer that question....
    technically his explanation works for me

    although your experience is of course still valid
    (that IRs into full range cabs don't work convincingly for you)

    i guess the concept works 'well enough' on any
    individual emulation , for players
    that want a few different rig emulations .....
    instantly available at the push of a button
    champ on one song , Marshall on another ,
    Dumble on another etc etc

  21. #20
    Also, another thought...Instead of trying to make your small PA speakers sound like a 4x12 cabinet (which we know to be an impossibility) why not just run your modeler through whatever guitar speakers you like? That way you can get a reasonable approximation of the amp you love through the speakers you love.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    Also, another thought...Instead of trying to make your small PA speakers sound like a 4x12 cabinet (which we know to be an impossibility) why not just run your modeler through whatever guitar speakers you like? That way you can get a reasonable approximation of the amp you love through the speakers you love.
    yes
    , it appears that this Celestion speaker's raisin d'etre
    is as a halfway house back to your idea of using
    the actual cabinet you dig ...

  23. #22

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    Uh, might just be me, but I'd want to run a full range speaker for the effects post-cab, like when you mike a cab up and do rack fx

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    There's literally an explanation why in the article the original poster linked.


    Quote Originally Posted by mr quick View Post
    Uh, might just be me, but I'd want to run a full range speaker for the effects post-cab, like when you mike a cab up and do rack fx
    It's not just you. For people who use this kind of equipment beyond “chasing” the sound of dead men from the 50s, FRFR is great— with octavers or other pitch shifters, any kind of synth sounds, etc etc

  25. #24

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    It’s an interesting product. Celestion recommends a bass-reflex cabinet for it.

    Build your own 1x12 cabinet for the F12-X200 Full Range Live Response speaker.

  26. #25

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    FRFR is now trendy. For how long, I'm not sure. Jensen has launched their N12D, which apparently is more "guitary" than the Celestion, with a bit of a hump around 2-3 kHz, but extending beyond 15K. I think these speakers, which hopefully will appear in the 10", even 8" caliber, with Neo magnets for portability, should find good use among pedal and lap steel players, as well as acoustic guitar and bass, ethnic instruments, keyboards, accordion, harmonica, even violin. The absence of a separate horn means less weight, complexity and cost. A personal stage monitor doesn't have to be 12" IMHO. In fact, even Eminence's 6.5" Alphalite 6A can get pretty loud. It's a flat response speaker up to 6.5 kHz, which to me is enough in field conditions.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug View Post
    FRFR is now trendy. For how long, I'm not sure. Jensen has launched their N12D, which apparently is more "guitary" than the Celestion, with a bit of a hump around 2-3 kHz, but extending beyond 15K. I think these speakers, which hopefully will appear in the 10", even 8" caliber, with Neo magnets for portability, should find good use among pedal and lap steel players, as well as acoustic guitar and bass, ethnic instruments, keyboards, accordion, harmonica, even violin. The absence of a separate horn means less weight, complexity and cost. A personal stage monitor doesn't have to be 12" IMHO. In fact, even Eminence's 6.5" Alphalite 6A can get pretty loud. It's a flat response speaker up to 6.5 kHz, which to me is enough in field conditions.
    I agree it's trendy and the guitar manufacturing world is big on trends. Nobody yet has been able to tell me why I need a speaker that extends to 15k, muchless 20k to "model" a cabinet that doesn't go past 5k...

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by thpm View Post
    There's literally an explanation why in the article the original poster linked.




    It's not just you. For people who use this kind of equipment beyond “chasing” the sound of dead men from the 50s, FRFR is great— with octavers or other pitch shifters, any kind of synth sounds, etc etc
    I bet less than 1% of guitarists are using synth sounds. I agree that those extended range speakers sound great for synth, acoustic guitar, etc. I just don't get it for the modelers.

  29. #28

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    I personally have grown to loathe modeling for my purposes, so I am not defending how it sounds and feels, but FRFR is not just about the range of frequencies but also “flat response” across all frequencies. If you need the sound of several different kinds of cabs, the idea is that the FRFR speaker will be able to more accurately reproduce all of them than a single guitar cab with its own colored response would. But of course, modeling with IRs is not actually reproducing just sound of the cab: it’s reproducing the sounds of a cab, in a given room, with a given mic, in a given position. I messed with it for way too long. Back to amps.

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    I personally have grown to loathe modeling for my purposes, so I am not defending how it sounds and feels, but FRFR is not just about the range of frequencies but also “flat response” across all frequencies. If you need the sound of several different kinds of cabs, the idea is that the FRFR speaker will be able to more accurately reproduce all of them than a single guitar cab with its own colored response would. But of course, modeling with IRs is not actually reproducing just sound of the cab: it’s reproducing the sounds of a cab, in a given room, with a given mic, in a given position. I messed with it for way too long. Back to amps.
    I just think that IR responses don't really capture the sound effectively. I've found it to be the weakest link in the modeling chain. I think the axefx sounds great going through a real cab but going through a FRFR cab they sound awful.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I just think that IR responses don't really capture the sound effectively. I've found it to be the weakest link in the modeling chain. I think the axefx sounds great going through a real cab but going through a FRFR cab they sound awful.
    Absolutely agree. Best technical explanation of why that I have encountered is in a thread on TGP called “IR Properties”. Warning: rabbit hole. Frankly, it’s just way too much futzing around. I can get a more satisfying sound in 10 seconds with a 5 watt tube amp with a single tone knob than I ever got after *lots* of time and money down the modeling/FRFR drain.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 08-14-2019 at 02:09 PM.

  32. #31

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    The top-end response of a conventional guitar speaker will start to decline significantly above 5kHz or so, but there is still plenty happening above that point, just not at the same level as below. If you've ever applied a steep low-pass filter at 5kHz to a recorded guitar signal, you soon realise how important the low-level, high-frequency components are to an interesting guitar sound! It is this characteristic response that modelled speakers and speaker impulse responses (IRs) replicate. Reproducing this response through a conventional guitar speaker would result in, effectively, applying the response curve twice, diminishing the upper frequency components to inaudibility — hence the (to some) slightly counterintuitive need for a full-range system to reproduce a limited bandwidth source.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    Nobody yet has been able to tell me why I need a speaker that extends to 15k, muchless 20k to "model" a cabinet that doesn't go past 5k...
    you kept asking this , so I quoted the article below
    in post #31

  34. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    you kept asking this , so I quoted the article below
    in post #31
    I alread read that and I would disagree with that article. And even if I agreed, you don't need flat response out to 20khz to reproduce it. In fact, you wouldn't need anything other than a standard guitar speaker to reproduce what a standard guitar speaker can give you.

    This whole thing is just an example of gearpage inspired mania and emperor's new clothes IMO.

  35. #34

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    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !
    Nonetheless, if you're modeling a guitar speaker, you don't need a PA speaker to reproduce it. All you need is a guitar speaker.

    And the only way to get 20khz over a phone line is to encode the data. You can't get unencoded analog data above 5khz on a phoneline.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !
    That’s not a good analogy. DSL required major changes to infrastructure. Only the last mile is old fashioned telephone cable.

    I do think there is something audible above 5kHz in guitar speakers but not anywhere near 20kHz, so I doubt this new speaker would be much benefit for modeling conventional guitar amps. If the modeling amp has features that adds higher frequency content it might be useful—for example, an acoustic guitar simulator. It might also be useful in an acoustic guitar amp, but that’s not how it’s being marketed.

    Since Celestion recommends a specific ported cabinet for it, slapping it into a cabinet not designed for it could result in a weird frequency response on the lower end. I think it should be of most interest to OEMs. I’m just speculating.

  38. #37

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    I like the synthy sounds, sometimes. I have fiber to the modem, plan on living long enough to see what’s next. Directed bone conduction, airborne wi-fi? Don’t know.

  39. #38

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    While I'm usually drawn to music conjecture and discussion, I will just post an observation involving a Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speaker with an archtop guitar. The following chain:

    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing. Discovered by accident, in this chain the Joyo provides a unique EQ that's hard to replicate. It's a warm, woody, acoustic sound. With clarity but without harshness or the wrong sorts of muddy overtones. Chain sounds OK with regular archtop with an Armstrong hand wound, but comes alive with the Wu, phosphor strings, and the Sunrise pup. Don't get the same impact with a regular guitar amp.
    Hell is full of musical amateurs - George Bernard Shaw

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410 View Post
    While I'm usually drawn to music conjecture and discussion, I will just post an observation involving a Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speaker with an archtop guitar. The following chain:

    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing. Discovered by accident, in this chain the Joyo provides a unique EQ that's hard to replicate. It's a warm, woody, acoustic sound. With clarity but without harshness or the wrong sorts of muddy overtones. Chain sounds OK with regular archtop with an Armstrong hand wound, but comes alive with the Wu, phosphor strings, and the Sunrise pup. Don't get the same impact with a regular guitar amp.
    Thats interesting Spook
    How do you have the Joyo set ?
    (I haven't got much usefull out of mine)

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410 View Post
    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing.
    Since the Joyo American is a pretty straight clone of a Tech21 Sansamp circuit, but for some dazzling reason they did not include the switch to turn its “cab sim” part off, I’m not surprised it sounds best directly into a FRFR(ish) speaker!

    Might be the reason why many people find it rather lacking, playing through a regular cab is not ideal.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    Makes sense.

    But on your Guitar Demos and Compositions - ( which have a nice Studio Polish ) over last few years we are hearing AX -8 direct ?

    Or direct and a little mic- ing mixed in ?

    Or are you using AX -8 essentially like a preamp thru some of your favorite Guitar Cabs ?

    Your Recording set up ( and playing obviously ) really works even on Youtube- you must have heard this before - which is why I ask .