The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    There's a recent review of a new Celestion speaker: Celestion F12–X200

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  3. #2

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    Thanks for posting the link. I actually purchased this from Sweetwater about 6 months ago with the promise of a delivery in a couple of weeks but gave up after 2+months of waiting and cancelled the order.

  4. #3

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    Mmm... maybe for the Boss 100watt combo...

  5. #4

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    Confusion about the speaker - is it available to individual customers or OME only? I made an inquiry to a factory rep. in June but have not received an answer yet. For my TOOB line of ultralight cabs, I'd welcome a Neo version, even just 10", so the Kemper freaks would have a truly lightweight stage monitor. Other apps: pedal and lap steel, other high-pitch stringed instruments (incl. violin), harmonica, keyboards.

  6. #5

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    It is available to the general public and I would imagine OEM. Celestion has had some unexplained difficulties in getting this into production but looks like it has been sorted out.

  7. #6

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    I may well be an excellent speaker
    (not talking about that)

    However the idea of it ....I don't get

    Does the thinking go like this ?

    I dig my tube amp but
    I need a more consistent/reliable/controllable way to get that sound ..... So
    I get an amp modeller with an IR of my speaker cab
    I run it into a flat PA or a flat monitor speaker

    hurrah !

    nope .... I now need to run it into one of the above speakers ??
    i don't get it

  8. #7

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    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    Hahaha yes, I absolutely agree with you!

    “alright, check out our new speaker emulation software! It makes your expensive full range 12” neodymium speaker sound just like the inefficient and underpowered 6” CTS of a Silverface Champ!”
    “Uhm... why don’t you just use a cheap inefficient 6” speaker.....?”
    “Ehm.......”

    Well I guess the reasoning would be they would like to simulate the 6” Champ but also the 4x12 Marshall cab through a single speaker but I think you end up with a compromise that’s close but no cigar.

  10. #9

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    With an iPad, or other computer in a box pedals, in an FX loop a guitar can generate frequencies beyond what a traditional guitar speaker can reproduce. Some players enjoy exploring those sonic territories.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBPhx
    With an iPad, or other computer in a box pedals, in an FX loop a guitar can generate frequencies beyond what a traditional guitar speaker can reproduce. Some players enjoy exploring those sonic territories.
    it doesn't matter because if you end up running it through a regular guitar speaker - i mean the real speaker, not the modeled speaker, you're not getting anything above about 5k. I can see the advantage of the FR speaker for acoustic guitar or slapped bass but it just doesn't make sense for analog guitar amp modeling. The best thing to do IMO is to find a very neutral guitar speaker like an EV12L or Celestion BN300 and use that in an open back cabinet if you want to use speaker modeling. Personally, if I ever get another modeler, I'd just disable the speaker modeler and run it through my guitar cabs.

  12. #11

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    So the idea is to have a speaker emulate a P.A.speaker or even a monitor with a tweeter? Other than the weight isssue, how does this work in an open back cab?

    Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response. I have yet to be as happy with a direct mix as playing with a regular amp rig.

    Even the Hughes Kettner Black Spirit combo uses a Celestion Cream Back 75 12" speaker. Not sure how that can handle 200 watts thought ?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    ...Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response....
    My apologies for going off topic: you and Jack Z with his speaker swap for the Jensen are making me a little nervous while I wait for my BlockDock 12 to arrive. Got that Celestion BN in a closed back Mach2 cab and love it. Hope I like the BlockDock (semi?) open back with the same....

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So the idea is to have a speaker emulate a P.A.speaker or even a monitor with a tweeter? Other than the weight isssue, how does this work in an open back cab?

    Most Neo speakers work way better in closed back cab designs. Otherwise they tend to lack low end response. I have yet to be as happy with a direct mix as playing with a regular amp rig.

    Even the Hughes Kettner Black Spirit combo uses a Celestion Cream Back 75 12" speaker. Not sure how that can handle 200 watts thought ?
    i don't understand your first sentence.

    Regarding the 2nd sentence, I disagree there too. The celestion BN300 has plenty of bass (although I don't like the sound much) and the Jensen Tornado Stealth does too.

    I guess I have no idea what you're saying, lol

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    My apologies for going off topic: you and Jack Z with his speaker swap for the Jensen are making me a little nervous while I wait for my BlockDock 12 to arrive. Got that Celestion BN in a closed back Mach2 cab and love it. Hope I like the BlockDock (semi?) open back with the same....
    I personally don't like the BN300 speaker. It's got a bit of a middy sound to me when you are on axis with it. I have 2 blockdock cabs with the jensen tornado stealth neo speaker and it's great. Plenty of bottom.

  16. #15

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    Exactly what I was hoping not to hear Jack. On the bright side, at least I know the fix. TIA if that happens. And maybe another BN for Jads on the loose...

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Exactly what I was hoping not to hear Jack. On the bright side, at least I know the fix. TIA if that happens. And maybe another BN for Jads on the loose...
    Don't take my word for it. Speakers are subjective. I sold my BN300 to a guy here who loves it. Just know that neither the BN300 or the Jensen jet tornado need a closed back cab. They both have tons of bass. When I was using my quilter, I had the bass on zero going through those cabs. Bass on my vintage sound 1x12 (jensen jet) is on 2 and there's plenty of bass. I have to turn the bass down when playing loud.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?
    i had the same question Jack , totally

    read the review of the speaker in the OP
    he does answer that question....
    technically his explanation works for me

    although your experience is of course still valid
    (that IRs into full range cabs don't work convincingly for you)

    i guess the concept works 'well enough' on any
    individual emulation , for players
    that want a few different rig emulations .....
    instantly available at the push of a button
    champ on one song , Marshall on another ,
    Dumble on another etc etc

  19. #18

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    So this is where I must disagree with Jack Z on his opinion. Neodymium speakers absolutely sound better in closed back cabs from my experience. Also the Celestion 12 300 speaker has the right amount of bass for my taste. The Jensen Tornado while a fine speaker, does not produce an abundance of bass. Especially in an open back 1x12" cab.

    I use Quilter Aviator amps for heads as a reference point. As well as a Katana 100 watt head. But have used Mesa Boogies also with Jensen Tornado .
    I'm also talking account for live gigs,different rooms and bands as well.

    Sorry Jack Z, we just have different ears.

  20. #19

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    I agree it sounds good in principal but why does a recorded tube amp on various old wes, benson, etc., so so drastically different from what you can get out of the modelers? IMO, it's just industry-speak that is replicated from one reviewer to the next. There's no such thing as "sound in the room". The sound is the sound, period! And why do you need a 20khz HF speaker to replicate different guitar amp speaker cabinets? If you're replicating any guitar speaker, you don't need more than about 6k so the argument just doesn't hold up.

    Regardless of whether you are imitating marshall, dumble or fender, you don't need a FRFR speaker cab. The absolute best modeling tones I've ever heard were from a modeler with the speaker simulator disabled and running through a standard guitar cabinet. Joey Goldstein has written about this many times on the modern jazz guitar forum on facebook. (see my signature)

    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    i had the same question Jack , totally

    read the review of the speaker in the OP
    he does answer that question....
    technically his explanation works for me

    although your experience is of course still valid
    (that IRs into full range cabs don't work convincingly for you)

    i guess the concept works 'well enough' on any
    individual emulation , for players
    that want a few different rig emulations .....
    instantly available at the push of a button
    champ on one song , Marshall on another ,
    Dumble on another etc etc

  21. #20

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    Also, another thought...Instead of trying to make your small PA speakers sound like a 4x12 cabinet (which we know to be an impossibility) why not just run your modeler through whatever guitar speakers you like? That way you can get a reasonable approximation of the amp you love through the speakers you love.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Also, another thought...Instead of trying to make your small PA speakers sound like a 4x12 cabinet (which we know to be an impossibility) why not just run your modeler through whatever guitar speakers you like? That way you can get a reasonable approximation of the amp you love through the speakers you love.
    yes
    , it appears that this Celestion speaker's raisin d'etre
    is as a halfway house back to your idea of using
    the actual cabinet you dig ...

  23. #22

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    Uh, might just be me, but I'd want to run a full range speaker for the effects post-cab, like when you mike a cab up and do rack fx

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    There's literally an explanation why in the article the original poster linked.


    Quote Originally Posted by mr quick
    Uh, might just be me, but I'd want to run a full range speaker for the effects post-cab, like when you mike a cab up and do rack fx
    It's not just you. For people who use this kind of equipment beyond “chasing” the sound of dead men from the 50s, FRFR is great— with octavers or other pitch shifters, any kind of synth sounds, etc etc

  25. #24

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    It’s an interesting product. Celestion recommends a bass-reflex cabinet for it.

    Build your own 1x12 cabinet for the F12-X200 Full Range Live Response speaker.

  26. #25

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    FRFR is now trendy. For how long, I'm not sure. Jensen has launched their N12D, which apparently is more "guitary" than the Celestion, with a bit of a hump around 2-3 kHz, but extending beyond 15K. I think these speakers, which hopefully will appear in the 10", even 8" caliber, with Neo magnets for portability, should find good use among pedal and lap steel players, as well as acoustic guitar and bass, ethnic instruments, keyboards, accordion, harmonica, even violin. The absence of a separate horn means less weight, complexity and cost. A personal stage monitor doesn't have to be 12" IMHO. In fact, even Eminence's 6.5" Alphalite 6A can get pretty loud. It's a flat response speaker up to 6.5 kHz, which to me is enough in field conditions.