The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    FRFR is now trendy. For how long, I'm not sure. Jensen has launched their N12D, which apparently is more "guitary" than the Celestion, with a bit of a hump around 2-3 kHz, but extending beyond 15K. I think these speakers, which hopefully will appear in the 10", even 8" caliber, with Neo magnets for portability, should find good use among pedal and lap steel players, as well as acoustic guitar and bass, ethnic instruments, keyboards, accordion, harmonica, even violin. The absence of a separate horn means less weight, complexity and cost. A personal stage monitor doesn't have to be 12" IMHO. In fact, even Eminence's 6.5" Alphalite 6A can get pretty loud. It's a flat response speaker up to 6.5 kHz, which to me is enough in field conditions.
    I agree it's trendy and the guitar manufacturing world is big on trends. Nobody yet has been able to tell me why I need a speaker that extends to 15k, muchless 20k to "model" a cabinet that doesn't go past 5k...

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by thpm
    There's literally an explanation why in the article the original poster linked.




    It's not just you. For people who use this kind of equipment beyond “chasing” the sound of dead men from the 50s, FRFR is great— with octavers or other pitch shifters, any kind of synth sounds, etc etc
    I bet less than 1% of guitarists are using synth sounds. I agree that those extended range speakers sound great for synth, acoustic guitar, etc. I just don't get it for the modelers.

  4. #28

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    I personally have grown to loathe modeling for my purposes, so I am not defending how it sounds and feels, but FRFR is not just about the range of frequencies but also “flat response” across all frequencies. If you need the sound of several different kinds of cabs, the idea is that the FRFR speaker will be able to more accurately reproduce all of them than a single guitar cab with its own colored response would. But of course, modeling with IRs is not actually reproducing just sound of the cab: it’s reproducing the sounds of a cab, in a given room, with a given mic, in a given position. I messed with it for way too long. Back to amps.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I personally have grown to loathe modeling for my purposes, so I am not defending how it sounds and feels, but FRFR is not just about the range of frequencies but also “flat response” across all frequencies. If you need the sound of several different kinds of cabs, the idea is that the FRFR speaker will be able to more accurately reproduce all of them than a single guitar cab with its own colored response would. But of course, modeling with IRs is not actually reproducing just sound of the cab: it’s reproducing the sounds of a cab, in a given room, with a given mic, in a given position. I messed with it for way too long. Back to amps.
    I just think that IR responses don't really capture the sound effectively. I've found it to be the weakest link in the modeling chain. I think the axefx sounds great going through a real cab but going through a FRFR cab they sound awful.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I just think that IR responses don't really capture the sound effectively. I've found it to be the weakest link in the modeling chain. I think the axefx sounds great going through a real cab but going through a FRFR cab they sound awful.
    Absolutely agree. Best technical explanation of why that I have encountered is in a thread on TGP called “IR Properties”. Warning: rabbit hole. Frankly, it’s just way too much futzing around. I can get a more satisfying sound in 10 seconds with a 5 watt tube amp with a single tone knob than I ever got after *lots* of time and money down the modeling/FRFR drain.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 08-14-2019 at 02:09 PM.

  7. #31

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    The top-end response of a conventional guitar speaker will start to decline significantly above 5kHz or so, but there is still plenty happening above that point, just not at the same level as below. If you've ever applied a steep low-pass filter at 5kHz to a recorded guitar signal, you soon realise how important the low-level, high-frequency components are to an interesting guitar sound! It is this characteristic response that modelled speakers and speaker impulse responses (IRs) replicate. Reproducing this response through a conventional guitar speaker would result in, effectively, applying the response curve twice, diminishing the upper frequency components to inaudibility — hence the (to some) slightly counterintuitive need for a full-range system to reproduce a limited bandwidth source.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Nobody yet has been able to tell me why I need a speaker that extends to 15k, muchless 20k to "model" a cabinet that doesn't go past 5k...
    you kept asking this , so I quoted the article below
    in post #31

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    you kept asking this , so I quoted the article below
    in post #31
    I alread read that and I would disagree with that article. And even if I agreed, you don't need flat response out to 20khz to reproduce it. In fact, you wouldn't need anything other than a standard guitar speaker to reproduce what a standard guitar speaker can give you.

    This whole thing is just an example of gearpage inspired mania and emperor's new clothes IMO.

  10. #34

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    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !
    Nonetheless, if you're modeling a guitar speaker, you don't need a PA speaker to reproduce it. All you need is a guitar speaker.

    And the only way to get 20khz over a phone line is to encode the data. You can't get unencoded analog data above 5khz on a phoneline.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    bandwidth is sometimes counterintuitive ....

    a story
    i remember years years ago chatting to a physics prof
    in the interval of a pub jazz gig

    he said he was researching putting the internet down phone lines ...
    it was the days of dial-up modems ....
    he said they were gonna get 5 Mhz out of a phone line ...
    i said no way ..you’re lucky to get 5Khz

    i worked in audio with phone lines so i knew what was possible ....

    i was wrong ....
    you maybe reading this down
    the internet on your phone line
    right now !
    That’s not a good analogy. DSL required major changes to infrastructure. Only the last mile is old fashioned telephone cable.

    I do think there is something audible above 5kHz in guitar speakers but not anywhere near 20kHz, so I doubt this new speaker would be much benefit for modeling conventional guitar amps. If the modeling amp has features that adds higher frequency content it might be useful—for example, an acoustic guitar simulator. It might also be useful in an acoustic guitar amp, but that’s not how it’s being marketed.

    Since Celestion recommends a specific ported cabinet for it, slapping it into a cabinet not designed for it could result in a weird frequency response on the lower end. I think it should be of most interest to OEMs. I’m just speculating.

  13. #37

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    I like the synthy sounds, sometimes. I have fiber to the modem, plan on living long enough to see what’s next. Directed bone conduction, airborne wi-fi? Don’t know.

  14. #38

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    While I'm usually drawn to music conjecture and discussion, I will just post an observation involving a Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speaker with an archtop guitar. The following chain:

    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing. Discovered by accident, in this chain the Joyo provides a unique EQ that's hard to replicate. It's a warm, woody, acoustic sound. With clarity but without harshness or the wrong sorts of muddy overtones. Chain sounds OK with regular archtop with an Armstrong hand wound, but comes alive with the Wu, phosphor strings, and the Sunrise pup. Don't get the same impact with a regular guitar amp.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    While I'm usually drawn to music conjecture and discussion, I will just post an observation involving a Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speaker with an archtop guitar. The following chain:

    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing. Discovered by accident, in this chain the Joyo provides a unique EQ that's hard to replicate. It's a warm, woody, acoustic sound. With clarity but without harshness or the wrong sorts of muddy overtones. Chain sounds OK with regular archtop with an Armstrong hand wound, but comes alive with the Wu, phosphor strings, and the Sunrise pup. Don't get the same impact with a regular guitar amp.
    Thats interesting Spook
    How do you have the Joyo set ?
    (I haven't got much usefull out of mine)

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    Wu Oval Hole guitar -> Sunrise acoustic magnetic pickup -> good pre-amp w/flat EQ -> Joyo American pedal in FX loop (set squeaky clean) -> Acus 350 powered speaker (very FRFR, no added EQ)

    Sounds pretty amazing.
    Since the Joyo American is a pretty straight clone of a Tech21 Sansamp circuit, but for some dazzling reason they did not include the switch to turn its “cab sim” part off, I’m not surprised it sounds best directly into a FRFR(ish) speaker!

    Might be the reason why many people find it rather lacking, playing through a regular cab is not ideal.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    So, my question has always been, why do you need a full range speaker/cab 20hz - 20khz to model a guitar speaker which typically has a frequency response of 80hz-4.5khz?

    It never made any sense to me and even with speaker modeling, I always hated the sound and full range cabs with modelers. To me , the only way to get a convincing modeling tone is to ditch the speaker emulation and run it through a standard guitar cab.
    Makes sense.

    But on your Guitar Demos and Compositions - ( which have a nice Studio Polish ) over last few years we are hearing AX -8 direct ?

    Or direct and a little mic- ing mixed in ?

    Or are you using AX -8 essentially like a preamp thru some of your favorite Guitar Cabs ?

    Your Recording set up ( and playing obviously ) really works even on Youtube- you must have heard this before - which is why I ask .