The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 75
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I have a recently acquired Heritage Johnny Smith archtop guitar that has small nylon washers between the thumbwheels and the saddle. I haven’t seen this before on other archtops and I was wondering if anyone on the forum has seen this before. It would seem like a temporary fix for a problem where the floating bridge has run out of height adjustment, but that doesn’t seem to be the case for this guitar. When I get around to a string change I might remove them to see if they are affecting the tone detrimentally. My guess is that they wouldn’t be tone robbers because you still have the threaded posts conducting vibrations from the saddle to the base.

    Come to think of it, this guitar had the fretboard planed above the 9th fret to correct tongue rise, so perhaps the washers are a remnant to get around that problem and were never removed after the rise was corrected. Just wondering.

    Thanks,

    Bill

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
    My guess is that they wouldn’t be tone robbers because you still have the threaded posts conducting vibrations from the saddle to the base.
    The saddle is sitting on the wheels so threaded posts only conduct vibrations that are transferred to the wheels from the saddle. My guess is that those nylon washers will have a big effect on tone depending on how thick they are. The are absorbing some of the vibrations. It means less volume and sustain, limited feedback from the body to strings for pickups to detect, some eq and overtone changes etc.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    I would be getting rid of those nylon washer in a heartbeat. No place for them on the saddle and bridge or something is/was wrong. Sounds like the planning maybe be the reason and washers were set on to raise action. Wow is that stupid.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Also the fact that they used nylon washers instead of metal washers means either the tone change was intentional or they didn't know what they were doing.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    It will be different without them and probably better. BUT... it's not necessarily a slam dunk. The washers will probably act as insulators between the saddle and the thumbwheels, and hence between the saddle and the bridge/body. But a net effect of that should be to concentrate more vibration energy between the nut and saddle. And that could, stress could, result in more sustain, not less.

    Again, I would be skeptical about keeping them on there, but listen with a critical ear when you A/B the difference.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Nylon has much lower acoustic impedance than wood. I doubt having the nylon washers would increase sustain. The current bridge will absorb vibrations more readily than nylon not being there.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    So.. almost all the vibration is going from saddle to posts to base to top. Isn't vibration to the thumb wheels pretty much wasted anyway? Or do we think the thumb wheels with their additional mass change how the posts resonate? Not sure if you could actually hear the difference or not. Maybe. Now I'm going to have to try it to see.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I think one can best think of the string energy going from the saddle to the wheels then to the posts.

    The saddle rests on the wheels. The saddle has some incidental contact to the posts.

    So yes, the washers are in the serial stress (and energy and vibration) path from the string to the top.

    But nylon is hardly a disaster in this situation. There is the mass of the nylon which is low and inconsequential.

    If anyone feels that the washers somehow resonate amd that this has an effect on the sound, that would seem nearly impossible in any practical way.

    I suppose adding tungsten washers could be argued to make some difference (adding mass to the bridge assembly) but in a blind A/B it would be also inconsequential.

    Some feel that nylon individual saddles on a t-o-m make a difference vs. brass or zinc or “base metal”, but that is in a far more critical situation than a relatively large washer surface between the bridge assembly and the wheels.

    So sure, take the washers out only because they seem silly. But do not expect any actual sound difference unless you deeply feel the need to perceive such a difference.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
    I think one can best think of the string energy going from the saddle to the wheels then to the posts.

    The saddle rests on the wheels. The saddle has some incidental contact to the posts.

    So yes, the washers are in the serial stress (and energy and vibration) path from the string to the top.

    But nylon is hardly a disaster in this situation. There is the mass of the nylon which is low and inconsequential.

    If anyone feels that the washers somehow resonate amd that this has an effect on the sound, that would seem nearly impossible in any practical way.

    I suppose adding tungsten washers could be argued to make some difference (adding mass to the bridge assembly) but in a blind A/B it would be also inconsequential.

    Some feel that nylon individual saddles on a t-o-m make a difference vs. brass or zinc or “base metal”, but that is in a far more critical situation than a relatively large washer surface between the bridge assembly and the wheels.

    So sure, take the washers out only because they seem silly. But do not expect any actual sound difference unless you deeply feel the need to perceive such a difference.
    Pt I disagree completely with the sound being the same. Would love to have the guitar and we could see right before our own ears. The saddle should sit right on the wheels of the bridge and be very metal. The string going over the top of the saddle on nylon, metal, or wood is a different question and produces different results which may not all be that different.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
    I think one can best think of the string energy going from the saddle to the wheels then to the posts.

    The saddle rests on the wheels. The saddle has some incidental contact to the posts.

    So yes, the washers are in the serial stress (and energy and vibration) path from the string to the top.

    But nylon is hardly a disaster in this situation. There is the mass of the nylon which is low and inconsequential.

    If anyone feels that the washers somehow resonate amd that this has an effect on the sound, that would seem nearly impossible in any practical way.

    I suppose adding tungsten washers could be argued to make some difference (adding mass to the bridge assembly) but in a blind A/B it would be also inconsequential.

    Some feel that nylon individual saddles on a t-o-m make a difference vs. brass or zinc or “base metal”, but that is in a far more critical situation than a relatively large washer surface between the bridge assembly and the wheels.

    So sure, take the washers out only because they seem silly. But do not expect any actual sound difference unless you deeply feel the need to perceive such a difference.
    I also disagree completely. As you say, nylon washers are in direct path of vibrations. Nylon as being an elastic object, is not a good and efficient medium for vibrations to pass through. Mass is not the issue, it's stiffness to mass ratio is the concern for acoustics. Nylon is the opposite of stiff. It's good at absorbing vibrations, not transferring them.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 07-23-2019 at 08:37 PM.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Waiting to hear the results............

    Hurry up, so I can start marketing nylon bridge parts, especially ones that get in the way and dampen energy transference. I'll charge more for "vintage spec".

    Seriously though, every part in the bridge system plays a role in energy transference and very often - tone. I did some experimenting with a semi-hollow body guitar, and changed posts, stop bars, saddles, TOM bridge body, and in many cases, trying materials made of different metals (no nylon) and I was amazed at some of the results, not all of them desirable. But hey, there could be a place for nylon parts. My Johnny Smith (Gibson '65) did not suit me at all for tone and response - I should have tried some nylon, maybe that could have warmed it up and smoothed it out ???

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Question, which would result in a bumpier ride:
    a) Rubber tyres.
    b) Metal tyres.

    The reason the obvious answer is "b" is because rubber is not a good medium for vibrations and impact to travel through.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Eisele
    Come to think of it, this guitar had the fretboard planed above the 9th fret to correct tongue rise, so perhaps the washers are a remnant to get around that problem and were never removed after the rise was corrected. Just wondering.
    i think that's your answer....they probably used the washers to get the bridge saddle up a bit higher to avoid any high fret buzzing...and once the problem was fixed (^ planed) they probably just left the washers in place

    i've also seen washers placed between the thumbwheel and the bridge base...in an effort to thwart the saddle and posts from bending towards the guitar body under string tension

    cheers

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Although the question here is how stiff are the nylon washers. Some nylon can be very stiff (like the ones that are used to make picks). Still even a stiff nylon would be too soft for this purpose.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I'd deffo get rid of the nylon washers .... Yuck !

    (some people even use nylon strings apparently ... Yuck)

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    I have seen nylon washers used under saddles on many different guitars over the past 38 years of handling Archtops - and actually on quite a few Heritage guitars. The Golden Eagle I just sold has them - and the tone was great, but may have been different without them.

    If I hadnt seen them used before on a Heritage I probably would have pulled them off. Keep in mind - a Heritage guitar usually has a steep neck angle which necessitates a higher stance on the bridge posts. I once had a sweet sixteen I brought to John Monteleone to correct tail rise and he took one look at the bridge and said " its a piece of ......and has to go".

    With no disrepect to Heritage owners, they did not always leave the factory with a great set up - or great fret work for that matter. It really depended upon who set them up. Marty Grass would know more about this im sure.

    I believe on the narrow saddles they were used to make up height and or possibly stabilize the saddle from being pulled out of square to the base - especially if the post holes were too large.

    My Borys B120 brass wheels actually contain an integral shoulder above the wheel, which measures the width of saddle - and is obviously intentional.

    No new builder I know would intentionally add a loose washer as part of the build plan. But maybe Heritage had reasons which go beyond this discussion.

    In any case, you can just remove them and splice on a strip of ebony along the bottom if it bothers you, or have a new saddle made......its really not a big problem to correct.

    Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    I see no need for washers to raise the saddle. It's easier to just turn the wheels an extra turn or so. If you're running out of post, unscrew them a turn or three. The washers are not at all necessary for raising the saddle. I tend to agree with ptchristopher, I don't expect much difference in tone. Having the washers there does make it easier to adjust the wheels, giving some ease of movement when they are turned. I don't know if that's the reason they were added, but it is one benefit. In any case, it's not rocket science to remove them, and there is no need to pay a famous luthier to have it done. If you're worried about them, remove them and see if it sounds better. I doubt there is a detectable difference, but I could be wrong. I would experiment if I had any nylon washers handy, but I don't, and it's not worth buying some just for this.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Here is a pic of my Borys B120 wheel.


  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by QAman
    Here is a pic of my Borys B120 wheel.

    That seems to me like a metal washer which I believe is a more sensible material for this purpose than nylon.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Yes, if you're going to use a washer, (and I see no reason to in most cases) metal probably makes more sense most of the time. I don't think that's really in question. The question seems to be whether it's absolutely essential to remove the ones that are on the subject guitar. I don't think it is, but if the OP disagrees, it's simple to do that. Being the inveterate tinkerer that I am, I would remove them and see whether it affects the sound, and how much, and whether it makes adjusting the wheels easier. After experimenting, I would then decide whether to keep them. I don't know of a better way to find out.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    That seems to me like a metal washer which I believe is a more sensible material for this purpose than nylon.
    It’s purpose may just be functional - to assist with the ease of moving wheel, in which case nylon would serve that purpose . But what affect it has on tone can only be determined through experimenting.

    I’ll give Roger a call to find out his reason for having this shoulder.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Yes, if you're going to use a washer, (and I see no reason to in most cases) metal probably makes more sense most of the time. I don't think that's really in question. The question seems to be whether it's absolutely essential to remove the ones that are on the subject guitar. I don't think it is, but if the OP disagrees, it's simple to do that.
    For me the question was always about the potential effect of the washers to the tone. So the washer being made of nylon is the reason why I think it's a bad idea. Metal washer wouldn't affect the tone. If it was a metal washer it would be moot point.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    If one thinks about it, a washer will not raise the actual potential maximum height of the bridge. The bridge height is limited by the post height and the need for the post to extend slightly into the bridge.

    Washers do not affect this. You can have 1mm of post extending into the bridge saddle via a wheel 1 mm below the top of the post or a wheel 3 mm below the top and a 2mm washer.

    As for the dramatic tone difference caused by the apparently staggeringly rubbery nylon, I leave that to those more given to imagination-enhanced experiences.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Yeah to some nylon, metal, wood etc. they are all the same. To others stiffness of the bridge mechanism is an important consideration. Even subtle stiffness difference between bone and plastic (even a type of plastic that's much stiffer than a nylon washer) can be heard clearly:

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Yeah to some nylon, metal, wood etc. they are all the same. To others stiffness of the bridge mechanism is an important consideration. Even subtle stiffness difference between bone and plastic (even a type of plastic that's much stiffer than a nylon washer) can be heard clearly: [...]
    Certainly agreed that materials can make a major difference.

    Here however we are talking about two very specific ideas:

    1. The washers somehow allow a different final bridge height - yet this is actually determined by the post height.

    2. The washers will have a notable effect on “tone” - which is possible, but far less likely in the configuration in question vs. other situations. For example an actual brass (as opposed to zinc or base metal) vs. nylon t-o-m saddle can present a consistent difference, but it is subtle, and in a far more critical position than the flat washers in question.