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It seems they might have realised the error of their ways. Perhaps...
presented with about the right balance of scepticism and hope, I think.
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07-02-2019 03:55 AM
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The proverbial has certainly hit the fan on YT with venom , players,
customers and dealers all very angry at Gibson on a number of issues
one of which is QC ,has gone down the tubes massively . A promo ad
for a new Les Paul showed dings and bad finish!! a Pro player complains
bitterly ( from Canada) of the very poor QC on his new two LP's
A complete new management structure, with a competent workforce
might work ,if they could get back the Crimson Custom Shop expertise
they might have a cat in Hell's chance of surviving , but doubtful.
Good luck. Heritage must be rubbing their hands with glee.
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Hmmmmm....remember that guy Mickey who just custom ordered that bourbon burst L5CES from TMZ for top dollar ? It came with a nice tail rise for no extra charge. Really if you can’t figure out how to make a straight neck. Does anyone at Gibson sight down the neck before they ship it off. I had to send 50% of those CME deals back because of neck issues. Same old Gibson just a different Captain steering the Titanic.
I will say the last 2018 Tal Farlow they made I bought from CME and it plays like a dream. Gibson has always been a dice roll since my first new Gibson in 1973. Even in their 1990’s golden era I saw a lot of roller coaster necks. Not to mention in the mid 2000’s countless trussrods that did not work at all or came from the factory maxed out.
I do wish in my lifetime I can see Gibson return to the glory days of 1959.
One more thing. Long ago the bridge broke on my Westerley Guild AA. I called Guild and they sent me a replacement immediately for free. Try and get a replacement bridge for your L5.
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Sadly nothing has really changed since Barney K. taped over his headstock logo in the early 70’s.
I will say the Crimson shop did put out some real masterpieces.
Memphis was always a real dice roll as was Gibson USA.
Time will tell. I hope they succeed.
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another thing...It's not unusual for gibson to have issues with a tail rise. Most of the gibson archtops I've seen from 1990 and earlier need to have that issue taken care of. Most modern builders taper the end of the fingerboard to compensate.
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Gibson never learned that the new dealer network they use is not like the dealers of old. Alot of the quality blame should be allocated to the dealers.
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
When you bought a New guitar many years ago, it came with a beautiful setup. The little old guy in the back would come out when you were filling out the paperwork and ask you how you want it setup, what kind of strings you want, bla, bla bla.. Gibson, Ibanez, Martin, Guild.. It didnt matter. It was part of the deal.
The new dealer network (mostly) does not offer that same kind of service. And, I'm sorry, that's a travesty. Because they make HUGE money on these guitars. Buying online, brand new from a dealer should be no different than the good old days.
Dont get me wrong, there are exceptions. I am sure there are. But for the most part, these are great guitars that lack a proper setup and inspection. The dealers that let these guitars out of the warehouses should share culpability here. And the dealer that lets a $4,000-$8,000 Gibson leave his store with a tailrise should lose his ability to sell the guitars. How do we know that the guitar with a tailrise left the Gibson shop with a tailrise? Yeah I know, they shouldn't use green wood. But a Large Company has to mass produce in order to keep its many American workers' families fed.
Every used Heritage guitar that I've ever owned never had a proper setup either.
The Mark Campellones of the world are rarities this day and age.
None of this has stopped my desire to own another L5. The king of Jazz guitars.
JD
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I agree 100% Joe. From 1972 to 2014 I bought all my Gibson’s from the same dealer. I always had to special order them. When they came in and it wasn’t right my dealer/friend wouldn’t even let me see it. He would outright refuse to let me seeing it. He would always say it doesn’t pass Vinny standards or mine. Kevin Jarvis of Gelb Music. He retired in 2014.
My last guitar through him was my 2014 L4. BigMike knows him well too. Gryphon Stringed Instruments is still old school around here too.
They won’t sell a bad guitar or consign one either.
Mark Campellone explained to me why Gibson’s always develop a tail rise. That is why his tails are fully floating. It is actually movement of the top and back that mostly causes it. Of course a green neck too.
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Customer service after the sale is so important. Jimmy D. and I kept in touch till his death. Mark Campellone is a great friend now too.
Call Gibson with a warranty issue. It will be fixed after a battle though.
It will be returned with some nice dents and dings too.
All my gripes with Gibson were earned the hard way. I lived the nightmares. Yes when they get it right nobody can touch them.
My love/hate relationship continues.
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Technically, they didn't win anything. They filed a lawsuit against Ibanez's US subsidiary (called Elger) claiming that their Les Paul copy's exact duplication of the open-book headstock (not the inlay logo) violated Gibson's trademark. The suit was settled with Ibanez withdrawing the copies from the US market and reintroducing them with different headstock designs. Ibanez then moved on to producing original designs. That became the template for Gibson's (and Fender's) further trademark defenses. They subsequently tried to defend the Les Paul shape in a lawsuit against PRS. They won that suit at trial, but lost at appeal. It seems like they're now trying to revisit the idea of protecting guitar shapes as trademarks, but that doesn't seem like a very good idea on the merits (let alone optics). Originally Posted by rio
John
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Gelb was a great shop
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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I sure hope Gibson succeeds, too. For folks like us, it would be a shame to see Gibson sail into the sunset.
I suspect that Gibson understood well the changes in MI dealer network retail over the last 30 years. Problem: it was an ineluctable force. Pretty early on, it was obvious, even to me, that people were going to use brick and mortar dealers to check instruments out, then quietly repair to their computers to order the same thing online from big-volume sellers.
This, by the way, seems way less dicey with a solid-body guitar (more of a commodity--a la the Leo Fender business model) than with a fancy archtop. Even so, ultimately archtops ended up getting traded this way.
Makes sense that companies would cut out the fancy stuff (L-5CES), where tongue rise and other quirkiness can militate against a mail order business model.
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I remember back in the 90's reading a Consumer Reports on cars. The Cadillac was the worst in every category. Bad build, reliability, performance.. a pretty awful car. But the 'Customer Satisfaction' was 5 stars out of 5. Because a Cadillac is what the buyer wanted. Common sense be damned.
Makes me think of this thread. Talking about how awful Gibson has been and yet that's what everyone wants. Guess you are what you were when.
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This--I don't want to keep harping on Gibson, but... Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
So many people crap on Eastman because they "aren't American" and "the Chinese don't know how to build quality guitars because they build them with 'slave labor'". Oh, the crap you find on the internet.
Is an Eastman as good as a vintage Gibson, I don't think so (though I haven't played a Gibson that I like as of yet...time will tell).
Here's the thing, when I had a ton of problems with my AR803--the truss rod sunk into the neck, a genuine horror story--the reps at Eastman corresponded with me right away and they made sure I was happy in the end. They spoke to Lou at Guitars n' Jazz and I got another AR803 (that's been my guitar ever since) no questions asks. I dunno if a Gibson truss rod would sink like that, but how would they've handled my situation?
I just had a nightmare of a time with Flat Rate Moving Systems (yes, I am calling them out!) when I moved to Washington. They were late by 2 weeks, and they lost my daughter's crib--scumbags!
Customer service goes a long way, even for our archies!
And those that just want to "buy American"... good luck with that.
90% of all clothes are made over seas.
90% of toys are made over seas.
90% of furniture is made over seas.
Verdict: Are Levis Made in the USA?
For the large majority of their jeans, Levi’s are not made in the USA. More than 99% of their jeans are made in countries like China, Japan, Italy, and others.
--Are Levi's Jeans Made in the USA? - All American Reviews
Unless you want to make a point and go broke "buying only American" (it's very expensive).
My wife used to deal with the factories in China, they make a heck of a lot more than you think.
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May I recommend Benedetto guitars?
They make superior instruments, in the great Gibson archtop tradition, and are very nice people.
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Mark Agnesi's dreadful demos of guitars on the videos from Normans Rare Guitars were bad enough.
That threatening video from Gibson is even worse, when I first saw it I initially thought it was some sort of joke.
I do believe there's a video from when he was at Normans Rare Guitars where he was singing the praises of an Ibanez Flying V copy from the 70's.
Oh, here it is!
Good for a laugh.Last edited by entresz; 07-02-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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Spook410,
I don't think that the archtops produced by Gibson from the 1990s-2010s are Cadillacs from the 90s.
Gibson made some excellent archtops during this period...and some that had to be returned for refinement.
Although I currently own non-Gibson carved-body guitars, I could easily be well satisfied with a 1990-2015 L5 CES.
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Some of the best Gibson carved archtops ever made were made under Triggs, Hutchinson, and Culberson's watch. Basically 1990 to Present.
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25 good years out of a 75 year run (guess it's a bit more than that) doesn't seem that wonderful. Maybe there are 25 good Cadillac years as well but that didn't keep me from poking my father-in-law for liking them so much as he talked about all the problems he was having with it. It's a question of wanting what you want and how common sense can go out the window a bit. If I had ever had to return a Yunzhi or Wu for something like a neck twist or ski jump, I would have been done with them. And yet people come back to Gibson. Certainly OK with me.. interesting view on human nature how an artistic tool like a guitar can get under our skin. Originally Posted by Greentone
Last edited by Spook410; 07-02-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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I had the good fortune to own six Crimson Custom Shop Gibsons a few years ago, each was as good as it gets. Originally Posted by Greentone
The availabilty (?) of a L5 or Wesmo , and current MAP is beyond the reach of the average buyer,
and the QC would be of concern.
If I wanted a reasonably priced good quality Jazz Box, an Eastman 580CE might be on my list
at a fraction of the price of a Gibson, and with very good appointments and playability, not just
my opinion, Rich Seversen demoed one and spoke glowingly of it . just saying ..
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To each his own. Joy Spring and Tal Farlow to me is as good as it gets jazz tone wise. I love my Gibson guitars but have never liked the company much. No one beats there guitar designs IMO. Sometimes you must dance with the devil to get what you want. I hate going to the dentist but like having good teeth.
Nothing sounds like a L5 except another L5. If that is the tone you require you must dance with the devil. You will never hear me speak badly about my Gibson guitars. I absolutely love them. The company on the other hand is a different story with me.
I am not the only one that loves the guitar but dislikes the company.
Johnny Smith and Barney Kessel come to mind.
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Loving their instruments and hating their corporate decisions are not mutually exclusive, its part of the typical Love/Hate relationship many of us have with the company.
Regarding tone, give me any time Tal's Doinky Thunk !!!
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Vinny, That about sums it up.
Love the guitar, but hate the company. When you think of that way, You can see why these threads tend to cause disagreements. The teeth/dentist line was classic.
Jack, You know, I've heard you say that about Joy Spring in the past and I never actually listened to it to see what you mean. But after listening to that album with a pair of great headphones, I can see what you mean and I agree wholeheartedly. That sound is really the perfect sound of a Jazz guitar. Beautiful.
JD
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I am a fan of Gibson guitars. I have played good and bad ones from all eras. I also like guitars made by other companies, including Ibanez, so I readily admit that neither America nor Gibson has a monopoly on great guitar making skills. That said, when i choose to play a guitar to inspire my jazz guitar playing, most often, the guitar will say Gibson on the headstock.
Having owned a few businesses in my life and having had hundreds of employees, dealt with dozens of government officials and having dealt with many unreasonable customers/clients, I can say with certainty that armchair quarterbacking Gibson's decisions on an Internet forum is much easier than trying to make a business work.
So go ahead and gripe here and elsewhere if you must. Tape over the Gibson logo (take care that the tape you use does not harm the nitro!) if that makes you more comfortable playing a Gibson. Play other brands if you desire. Whatever. I have a high dollar gig tomorrow (4th of July). I'll be playing a Gibson guitar as I celebrate America's birthday. I hope that both Gibson and America do well going forward. And I always keep in mind that in this life, few things are perfect.
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Harley Davidson is a perfect example of turning a company around. I have been riding them since 1978. I bought a new one in 1982. When I got it home it was already dripping oil. In 1985 they started turning the company around. Every Harley I have bought since 1985 hasn’t leaked a drop of oil or ever broke down and the build quality has been top notch. Customer satisfaction became extremely important to them finally and that turned into a success story.
If Gibson makes customer satisfaction their no.1 priority they will have tremendous success.
P.S. Gibson bring back the 175.
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+1. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
I have had a few gripes with the lack of Gibson quality under his watch, all were sent back. The ones I kept were stellar in every respect.
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anyone selling an ibanez pm120?
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