The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    a dual showman reverb is a twin in a head cab. I'm looking at several dual showmans. Also, possibly a super reverb or vibrolux reverb. I just hate all the issues you need to address when you buy a 40-50 year old amp.<br><br>I had a pro reverb that I put into a head and literally spent a year trying to debug it. I was getting intermittent cutting out. I replaced the filter caps and all other electrolytic caps and then tried to find the intermittent components using a tone generator and wooden chopsticks. Couldn't find it. Took it to two different techs. They couldn't find it. I eventually pulled all the components out and cleaned out the middle layer between the two wax coated fiber boards. There was a ton of loose solder between them. Apparently some solder pieces would move around during travel and intermittently be touching and shorting two other components. Once I rebuilt the whole board it was fine. BUT THAT WAS A FULL YEAR WORTH OF DEBUGGING!

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  3. #27

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    They're a bit pricey, but Mojotone has twin reverb head cabs, and Ebay has them once in a while. I bought one years ago for just such a project, but a friend smashed his 2x12 twin cab and I gave him mine since I "lightened" up my twin with two 10's.

    I still have a twin head on the back burner but I have enough projects and here's a saved link...

    Blackface Twin Reverb(R) Style Guitar Amplifier Head Cabinet - Mojotone.com

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    a dual showman reverb is a twin in a head cab. I'm looking at several dual showmans. Also, possibly a super reverb or vibrolux reverb. I just hate all the issues you need to address when you buy a 40-50 year old amp.<br><br>I had a pro reverb that I put into a head and literally spent a year trying to debug it. I was getting intermittent cutting out. I replaced the filter caps and all other electrolytic caps and then tried to find the intermittent components using a tone generator and wooden chopsticks. Couldn't find it. Took it to two different techs. They couldn't find it. I eventually pulled all the components out and cleaned out the middle layer between the two wax coated fiber boards. There was a ton of loose solder between them. Apparently some solder pieces would move around during travel and intermittently be touching and shorting two other components. Once I rebuilt the whole board it was fine. BUT THAT WAS A FULL YEAR WORTH OF DEBUGGING!
    Of all the amps I have owned (quite a few), the Dual Showman Reverb and its accompanying 2 x 15" JBL cabinet takes the absolute cake for pristine cleans and sparkle-icious Reverb. The logistical aspects are formidable, to be sure. But if some enterprising genius managed to build something that sounded as good at, say half the weight, I'd buy two.

  5. #29

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    Haven't tried it myself but I've heard that a Dual Showman Reverb head has enough room inside the stock cab to cut the baffle for a pair of 8"s and convert it into a combo. Sounds kinda cool!

    Jonathan

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jschiele
    Haven't tried it myself but I've heard that a Dual Showman Reverb head has enough room inside the stock cab to cut the baffle for a pair of 8"s and convert it into a combo. Sounds kinda cool!

    Jonathan
    I did this with a bandmaster reverb head cab (if memory serves correctly). It was originally a super or pro reverb and I put a couple of celestion 8" speakers in it.

  7. #31

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  8. #32

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    So Jack Z old Fenders while basically the same may sound quite different from each other due to tolerances of the components as well as speaker choice.
    Also due to the Vintage market Blackface cost nearly triple their lowly Silverface cousins.

    My advice would be to get an early Silverface without the master volume. And have it gone through and and make the necessary changes to the Blackface circuit you like. You'll have basically a brand new amp.

    Casey Goobey here in the Twin Cities used to work for Savage Amps,and is reasonable and an excellent amp tech.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I did this with a bandmaster reverb head cab (if memory serves correctly). It was originally a super or pro reverb and I put a couple of celestion 8" speakers in it.
    I'm curious, how did it work out?

  10. #34

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    Jack,

    I love Fender Dual Showman Reverb head amps. They sound terrific. They are very heavy amp heads, however. A work around is to find a Fender Showman amp (same amp sans reverb). I used to have a blackface Showman amp head. It sounded wonderful and it did the great Fender tone at bedroom to arena volumes. It was reasonably compact and not that heavy. Combine this head with a good 12" speaker cabinet and you have a super working amp. Pull two of the power tubes and you still have a 40-watt, clean Fender amp...and two spare power tubes.

    GT

  11. #35

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    Just to be a smart a$$: Fender never made a 1x12 35w AB763 (Blackface) amp, so technically it can´t be a clone ;-)

    A smart move would be to find a vintage Bandmaster Reverb head and build it into a 1x12 cab. The Bandmaster was hardly changed and stayed very true to the AB763 schematic.

    A Deluxe Reverb with 2x6L6 and bigger OT is a great amp as well imho, but since vinatge Deluxe Reverbs prices go sky high (at least overhere in Europe) it would be smarter to buy a boutique amp that stays true to the original Fender design and layout.

    Would you want a tube or solid state rectifier? (I suspect a solid state (diodes) rectifier would suit your playing style best.)

    I guess you just want to buy a new amp to your specs that stays true to the Blackface design. I get that: no hastle with old tubes, worn caps, CC-resitors hissing and going out of spec..... Boutique would be the way to go. Plenty of good suggestions for builders already done above. I might add Tube Amp Doctor in Germany: their kits stay very true to the original AB763 design and you can order them readily assembled. Even ready made they are cheaper than most boutique amps. But since they are in Germany shipping costs would probably make them too expensive for US customers. (And they don't do a 1x12 35 watt amp, their Super Reverb with a 1x15 would come closest.)

  12. #36
    the bandmaster only puts about 400v on the plates of the 6L6 tubes and has a tiny OT so it's pretty low headroom. The fargens are based on that design. It's been a while since I've had a bandmaster reverb but my gut tells me I want something a little closer to the classic AB763 design. For example, a pro reverb that I can upgrade the OT with. And I really think the tube reverb is an essential part of the fender circuit design so that's why I definitely want a head with reverb.


    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Just to be a smart a$$: Fender never made a 1x12 35w AB763 (Blackface) amp, so technically it can´t be a clone ;-)

    A smart move would be to find a vintage Bandmaster Reverb head and build it into a 1x12 cab. The Bandmaster was hardly changed and stayed very true to the AB763 schematic.

    A Deluxe Reverb with 2x6L6 and bigger OT is a great amp as well imho, but since vinatge Deluxe Reverbs prices go sky high (at least overhere in Europe) it would be smarter to buy a boutique amp that stays true to the original Fender design and layout.

    Would you want a tube or solid state rectifier? (I suspect a solid state (diodes) rectifier would suit your playing style best.)

    I guess you just want to buy a new amp to your specs that stays true to the Blackface design. I get that: no hastle with old tubes, worn caps, CC-resitors hissing and going out of spec..... Boutique would be the way to go. Plenty of good suggestions for builders already done above. I might add Tube Amp Doctor in Germany: their kits stay very true to the original AB763 design and you can order them readily assembled. Even ready made they are cheaper than most boutique amps. But since they are in Germany shipping costs would probably make them too expensive for US customers. (And they don't do a 1x12 35 watt amp, their Super Reverb with a 1x15 would come closest.)

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    the bandmaster only puts about 400v on the plates of the 6L6 tubes and has a tiny OT so it's pretty low headroom. The fargens are based on that design. It's been a while since I've had a bandmaster reverb but my gut tells me I want something a little closer to the classic AB763 design. For example, a pro reverb that I can upgrade the OT with. And I really think the tube reverb is an essential part of the fender circuit design so that's why I definitely want a head with reverb.
    Good point, Bandmaster Reverb in stock form would be low on clean headroom. Although they are easily modded with diode-rectifier, bigger OT and smaller step-down resistors for more voltage on the plates! Of course it becomes a project then but you would end up with the greatest amp that Fender never made!

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay
    Good point, Bandmaster Reverb in stock form would be low on clean headroom. Although they are easily modded with diode-rectifier, bigger OT and smaller step-down resistors for more voltage on the plates! Of course it becomes a project then but you would end up with the greatest amp that Fender never made!
    I think you'd need a different power transformer as well. I currently have a fargen blackbird 1x12 that sounds great but it needs a bit of work and doesn't quite sound like a fender. I'm thinking of sending it to ben to have him "AB-763" it. It's closer to a bandmaster reverb though in terms of voltages.

  15. #39

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    Jack,

    Just a thought. I remember playing a Rivera era Fender Concert Amp around 1984. I thought it was quite good and had both an excellent, clean Fender sound and great Fender reverb.

    12" speaker, 60 watts
    who makes a true 35w blackface fender clone?-fender-concert-jpg

  16. #40

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    Greentone~ Your recommendation for an 80's Concert II amp struck a nerve. I've owned two of them; still have one, and agree they make fantastic jazz/rock/RnB/etc. platforms. 60 watts of clean, lush reverb, plus a very rugged build, thanks to Paul Rivera.

    The 1x12 combo tends to be heavy...but it also comes in a head. (see example below). Maybe that would meet Mr. Zucker's criteria?


  17. #41

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    I had an early 80's Concert. It had very bright cleans and did not sound quite like a true Blackface to my ears (I never got a jazz tone that I loved with that amp). In addition, the high gain channel sounded terrible. These were Fender's attempt to compete with Mesa (and IMO, Fender failed in this attempt). I currently own a late 80's Mesa .50 Caliber. It is a 50 watt, one Twelve, 45 pound amp. To my ears, the clean channel is closer to a 60's Blackface tone than the early 80's Fender amps and the high gain channel is superb. And I get a terrific jazz tone with it. But it still does not get a true Blackface Fender tone (I have a 1964 Princeton and have AB'd them). The only way to do that, IMO, is to get a true Fender Blackface from the 60's.

  18. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I had an early 80's Concert. It had very bright cleans and did not sound quite like a true Blackface to my ears (I never got a jazz tone that I loved with that amp). In addition, the high gain channel sounded terrible. These were Fender's attempt to compete with Mesa (and IMO, Fender failed in this attempt). I currently own a late 80's Mesa .50 Caliber. It is a 50 watt, one Twelve, 45 pound amp. To my ears, the clean channel is closer to a 60's Blackface tone than the early 80's Fender amps and the high gain channel is superb. And I get a terrific jazz tone with it. But it still does not get a true Blackface Fender tone (I have a 1964 Princeton and have AB'd them). The only way to do that, IMO, is to get a true Fender Blackface from the 60's.
    Have you tried the mesa fillmore? It's supposedly based more on the BF fender sound. the clips I've heard seem a little bright as if the bright cap is hard-wired on. Unfortunately, the local guitar center seems to have gotten rid of almost everything over $500 so they don't have it for me to try.

    by the way, fargen says he can blackface my blackbird for about $200

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Have you tried the mesa fillmore? It's supposedly based more on the BF fender sound. the clips I've heard seem a little bright as if the bright cap is hard-wired on. Unfortunately, the local guitar center seems to have gotten rid of almost everything over $500 so they don't have it for me to try.

    by the way, fargen says he can blackface my blackbird for about $200
    I have not tried the Fillmore, but would love to. Of the many new Mesa designs, it looks like something a jazz guitarist (especially one who sometimes slips into a fusion mode) would bond with. Mesa still makes amps for working pros, unlike Fender whose amps are now made primarily for hobbyists.

    A bass player that I sometimes work with is a good friend of Randall Smith and used to work for him. I'm told that Randall is a jazz guitarist himself. How ironic that he has made his fortune selling amps to heavy metal guys!

    $200 is not a crazy investment to see if you can dial your Blackbird in to your taste. If you go that route, let us know how it turns out.

    I would still go for the real thing. They can be made reliable by a good tech and will deliver a tone that will end your quest.

  20. #44

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    Here is a link to the Mesa Fillmore:

    Access to this page has been denied.

    Like all Mesa amps, it will not be P2P (though Mesa makes their own high quality circuit boards) and will not be an exact Blackface tone (though my Mesa's from the late 80's and early 90's came close).

    It may be too bright for a good jazz tone, most modern tube amps (including the fender reissues) are. The rock/blues/Country guys like a brighter tone and there are a lot more of them than there are us, so the marketplace responds to them.

    I would sure like to try one though.....

  21. #45
    well, the fargen I was going to send back stopped working yesterday so I'm just going to send it back to guitar center. I have a more recent one which is a better build but I don't feel like messing with an amp that's not reliable so I'm still looking. I just hate to shell out $2500 for a louiselectric or clark!

  22. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by v281
    I know this isn’t what you were asking for but Mark Baier at Victoria Amps knows what he’s talking about: A Bit Of Insight From Mark Baier, the Mind Behind Victoria Amplifier | Vintage Guitar(R) magazine

    I’ve got both the Victoriette (1x12”) and the Victorilux (2x12”) and can’t recommend them highly enough :-)

    Here’s a clip of a much better player than I ammaking some sweet sounds with the 1x12” Victoriette, you owe it to yourself to take a look at one...
    isn't that a 20w 6v6 amp?

  23. #47

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    I think you know what the high quality true clone options are (e.g. Clark, Louis Electric, buy a Vintage Silverface Vibrolux Reverb for less and have someone George Alessandro work on it). All 3 are reputable builders with decades of experience with their amps in the field. As you know, Vintage BF Vibrolux Reverbs in good shape cost crazy $. All of these options will likely cost you in the $2,500-$3,000 range at the end of the day. I think the other BF AB763 makers all put their own spin on their amps which is not what you are looking for.

    2 x 10” BF Combos sound GREAT but weigh 45-50 lb. depending on the speakers used. I honestly can’t imagine hauling one of these around to a club (perhaps for recording). The search for the last 5% of goodness (for that matter for EVERYTHING, not just amps) always will always disproportionately cost you in money, may come with reliability and or convenience baggage. That 200w Quilter Head and a cabinet that you liked may be the practical (e.g. better is many times the enemy of good enough) gigging solution for you.

    Good Luck


    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    well, the fargen I was going to send back stopped working yesterday so I'm just going to send it back to guitar center. I have a more recent one which is a better build but I don't feel like messing with an amp that's not reliable so I'm still looking. I just hate to shell out $2500 for a louiselectric or clark!

  24. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
    I think you know what the high quality true clone options are (e.g. Clark, Louis Electric, buy a Vintage Silverface Vibrolux Reverb for less and have someone George Alessandro work on it). All 3 are reputable builders with decades of experience with their amps in the field. As you know, Vintage BF Vibrolux Reverbs in good shape cost crazy $. All of these options will likely cost you in the $2,500-$3,000 range at the end of the day. I think the other BF AB763 makers all put their own spin on their amps which is not what you are looking for.

    2 x 10” BF Combos sound GREAT but weigh 45-50 lb. depending on the speakers used. I honestly can’t imagine hauling one of these around to a club (perhaps for recording). The search for the last 5% of goodness (for that matter for EVERYTHING, not just amps) always will always disproportionately cost you in money, may come with reliability and or convenience baggage. That 200w Quilter Head and a cabinet that you liked may be the practical (e.g. better is many times the enemy of good enough) gigging solution for you.

    Good Luck
    The problem is that many of the clones (yes even the ones built by the big name guys) are poorly constructed. One of them I looked at recently which was having issues I opened up and discovered that instead of running a ground bus wire, they just pushed the tab of the pot back so it was touching the chassis and expect that that along with the mount would be enough to ground. In this case, oxidation was causing that to be intermittent. That seems like a hobbiest mistake but this was from a boutique builder. Another one I owned previously and sent back to the maker several times ended up having an issue where the B+ line going to the filter caps was never soldered. I finally discovered it myself after 2 trips back to the builder. It was touching the positive terminal but not soldered.

    Anyway, I think i'm talking myself into getting an original but I just hate the pain of getting it fixed. And sending to allesandro is no guarantee. I realize he's good but he's not going to re-solder every connection

  25. #49

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    You understand the dilemma perfectly. Big $ going all routes and no guarantee of happiness....Like walking into a voting booth, hold your nose and pull the switch on the candidate that stinks the least...

    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    The problem is that many of the clones (yes even the ones built by the big name guys) are poorly constructed. One of them I looked at recently which was having issues I opened up and discovered that instead of running a ground bus wire, they just pushed the tab of the pot back so it was touching the chassis and expect that that along with the mount would be enough to ground. In this case, oxidation was causing that to be intermittent. That seems like a hobbiest mistake but this was from a boutique builder. Another one I owned previously and sent back to the maker several times ended up having an issue where the B+ line going to the filter caps was never soldered. I finally discovered it myself after 2 trips back to the builder. It was touching the positive terminal but not soldered.

    Anyway, I think i'm talking myself into getting an original but I just hate the pain of getting it fixed. And sending to allesandro is no guarantee. I realize he's good but he's not going to re-solder every connection

  26. #50
    it's funny because 15-20 years ago I really enjoyed restoring old fenders. That was the only way to guarantee it was done right because I wasn't battling customer expectations and trying to make a profit from my repair work. But now, I just don't have the time or interest to suck in solder fumes for months