The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Three questions:

    1. what is an LJ?
    2. How can you put EL84s in a Mk III?
    3. Do you mean EL34s?
    LJ is Little Jazz.

    I stand corrected. I wasn't sure about the EL84. Apparently, it was the EL34.
    I got the idea from a discussion with the Mesa Customer Service guy and bought the tubes from Mesa.
    I can no longer remember what I was concerned about, but, even though I'm not a cork sniffer, those tubes didn't sound anything alike.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    LJ is Little Jazz.

    I stand corrected. I wasn't sure about the EL84. Apparently, it was the EL34.
    I got the idea from a discussion with the Mesa Customer Service guy and bought the tubes from Mesa.
    I can no longer remember what I was concerned about, but, even though I'm not a cork sniffer, those tubes didn't sound anything alike.
    i don't think mesa uses particularly good tubes. The reason to buy from them though is that their tubes don't require amp biasing because they only sell tubes that match the fixed bias in their amps. if you buy better quality tubes (for example, the tung-sol reissues are way better) you might have to bias your amp unless you buy from a dealer who sells tubes that are pre-selected for mesas (and many do)

    my morgan can take any 6V6, 5881, 6L6, EL34, KT66, KT77, etc. I have tried many of the brands out there including the chinese ones, tube doctor, JJ, sovtek and tung-sol reissues. The tung sol reissues are noticably better than any of them for clean jazz tones IMO...

  4. #53

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    It's strange how difficult it is to emulate
    the behaviour and sound of a good tube amp
    with SS designs and modelling ....

    apparently it still hasn't been nailed ...
    which is weird if you think about it

    but then again , even apparently simple things
    are sometimes way complex when you really study them up close

  5. #54

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    i don't believe it's a technical issue any longer. It's a marketing one. If a company like axefx ever decided to simply model a clean fender and get that as good as they could possibly get it I think we'd have a winner. The problem is that there is little market for a clean fender sound. The young kids buying the tech are metal players for the most part and you see that in the forums so that is what they cater to.



    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    It's strange how difficult it is to emulate
    the behaviour and sound of a good tube amp
    with SS designs and modelling ....

    apparently it still hasn't been nailed ...
    which is weird if you think about it

    but then again , even apparently simple things
    are sometimes way complex when you really study them up close

  6. #55

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    You want the real story? Tube amps sound more organic, or real if you prefer that word. By comparison, SS sound artificial, or imitation. Great SS lessen the gap for many users, and some users would have much difficulty differentiating between the two in a blind test.

    Which SS are very affordable AND very well engineered? Vox. My two Vox amps have an actual reverb tank inside.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    I would consider what I can hear rather than worrying about what they can hear. And I would not claim they cannot hear something because I can't hear it.
    It's like drum gels, drums sound real good to the person playing the drums but out in the audience drums that have gels sound like wet cardboard boxes. If you don't put any dampening on your drums they sound very ringing and weirdly boingy to the drummer but out in the audience they sound perfect.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by geogio
    Yeah my Deluxe Reverb died way before my mini brute ever did. But now my mini is down too and I just can I find anybody that can do a reliable fix ... but there are tube kits out there that might be worth a look.

    The funny part is theyre probably very easy repairs.

    perhaps learn to do it yourself?

  9. #58

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    anyone try the bluguitar amp 1?


    it's a 100w class d amp but with a nanotube preamp but about the size of a large pedal. seems like it's aimed more at the rocker crowd but has a fender style clean channel.


    unfortunately, there are only 2 or 3 clips of it playing clean stuff. this is probably the best of them. it doesn't sound particularly great here but perhaps a bit more dynamic than a straight class d amp.





  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    The funny part is theyre probably very easy repairs.

    perhaps learn to do it yourself?
    not if they are filter caps which is likely the case.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i don't believe it's a technical issue any longer. It's a marketing one. If a company like axefx ever decided to simply model a clean fender and get that as good as they could possibly get it I think we'd have a winner. The problem is that there is little market for a clean fender sound. The young kids buying the tech are metal players for the most part and you see that in the forums so that is what they cater to.
    I've played through amp plugins that nail clean Fender tones, at least on playback. While actually playing, the feel is not quite there, but I think that's more a function of playing at relatively low volumes through studio monitors. I've done recording sessions with really good sounding tube amps, but playing through monitors in a separate room or through headphones kills most of the amp's feel for me.

    I've only played through an Axefx very briefly through studio monitors, so I can't really judge that. But I've played through a bunch of lower-end modeling combos. I guy I know has a Fender Mustang I and I have a Champion 20, and I've played with bands through both. They're the same models, but the Mustang is more programmable and has a closed back cab, whereas the C20 doesn't store presets and has an open back.

    IMO, the C20 sounds much better, and closer to the real thing; I suspect the cabinet is the reason. Though, it sounds good enough to be very usable, I will say that my real Fender PR sounds a lot better. But this also harkens back to what I said about playback vs live feel. My Fender PR mic'ed and recorded does not sound better than a plug-in, at least not in the conditions I've recorded it.

    Bottom line, I think it's a complicated subject. As far as tube vs SS is concerned, there are usually so many other differences between a given tube and SS amp besides power stage design that you're rarely comparing tubes to transistors.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 06-11-2019 at 10:44 AM.

  12. #61
    The reason I started this thread is the discussion of the differences between the tube vs similar quality non-tube amps almost always about the overdriven sounds in the guitar world. In fact some seems to only care about the power amp distortion, nevermind the clean or light crunch sounds.
    Internet dudes, even during supposedly clean demos, cannot stay clean for more than 4 seconds, they are completely lost in clean sounds.
    Since this thread is about the clean sounds, I wonder if the preferences of the hi-fi audio world is more relevant to this discussion. I know there is also a general tendency to prefer tube amps by audiophiles. But they seem to be a bit more split than in the guitar world. I don't know too much out audio tube amps (or mics), are the insights in the audio world regarding tube vs SS transferible to the guitar world?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The reason I started this thread is the discussion of the differences between the tube vs similar quality non-tube amps almost always about the overdriven sounds in the guitar world. In fact some seems to only care about the power amp distortion, nevermind the clean or light crunch sounds.
    Internet dudes, even during supposedly clean demos, cannot stay clean for more than 4 seconds, they are completely lost in clean sounds.
    Since this thread is about the clean sounds, I wonder if the preferences of the hi-fi audio world is more relevant to this discussion. I know there is also a general tendency to prefer tube amps by audiophiles. But they seem to be a bit more split than in the guitar world. I don't know too much out audio tube amps (or mics), are the insights in the audio world regarding tube vs SS transferible to the guitar world?
    if you go to my youtube channel (Jack Zucker
    - YouTube
    ) there are tons of demos of the axefx stuff and kemper with jazz clean tones. The axefx is great but doesn't really sound like a real tube amp

  14. #63

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    The combo of the bluguitar amp 1 and the Streibel archtop sounds fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    anyone try the bluguitar amp 1?


    it's a 100w class d amp but with a nanotube preamp but about the size of a large pedal. seems like it's aimed more at the rocker crowd but has a fender style clean channel.


    unfortunately, there are only 2 or 3 clips of it playing clean stuff. this is probably the best of them. it doesn't sound particularly great here but perhaps a bit more dynamic than a straight class d amp.





  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The reason I started this thread is the discussion of the differences between the tube vs similar quality non-tube amps almost always about the overdriven sounds in the guitar world. In fact some seems to only care about the power amp distortion, nevermind the clean or light crunch sounds.
    Internet dudes, even during supposedly clean demos, cannot stay clean for more than 4 seconds, they are completely lost in clean sounds.
    Since this thread is about the clean sounds, I wonder if the preferences of the hi-fi audio world is more relevant to this discussion. I know there is also a general tendency to prefer tube amps by audiophiles. But they seem to be a bit more split than in the guitar world. I don't know too much out audio tube amps (or mics), are the insights in the audio world regarding tube vs SS transferible to the guitar world?
    - I don't think the audiophile world has much to offer in the guitar-related SS vs tube discussion. First, there is definitely NOT an overall preference for tubes in that world. There are SS and tube camps there as well, and there's plenty of cray-cray expensive SS stuff. Second "clean" for a guitar player is typically a lot more colored and distorted than "clean" for an audiophile. If you really dig into the differences between SS and tube guitar amps, it comes down to the characteristics of distortion and compression at all volume levels (guitar amps are never truly clean), how each handles loud sounds that approach overdrive thresholds, and the contributions of output transformers to the sound. Audiophiles are looking for different things, over much wider frequency responses and dynamic ranges. TL;DR: if you plug your guitar into a high-end audiophile tube preamp and power amp, you're unlikely to find yourself wanting to abandon your guitar amps. Mics are another world altogether -- that's about the very subtle process of matching a mic's characteristics to a sound source's.

    TL;DR: I'm afraid we're stuck with bad youtube amp reviews.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 06-12-2019 at 12:05 PM.

  16. #65

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    I really don't care one way or the other - either one makes my guitar louder which is the point and they both have some sort of EQ built in to alter the tone. Nowadays, it all boils down to whether or not I can lift it into the car. I sound like me, regardless of the equipment I use so I'm easy to please.

  17. #66

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    I find the traditional approach to guitar amplification very primitive. A relatively inexpensive hifi or AVR system can be made to sound fantastic in any normal room, not so a $ 3000 traditional guitar amp. Merely copying recipes from the 60s, ignoring the findings of audio scientists in the past three decades, makes no sense to me, e.g. the primary roles of room correction (EQ) and speakers in sound quality. No reason why those wouldn't apply to guitar amps, too.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_d
    I find the traditional approach to guitar amplification very primitive. A relatively inexpensive hifi or AVR system can be made to sound fantastic in any normal room, not so a $ 3000 traditional guitar amp. Merely copying recipes from the 60s, ignoring the findings of audio scientists in the past three decades, makes no sense to me, e.g. the primary roles of room correction (EQ) and speakers in sound quality. No reason why those wouldn't apply to guitar amps, too.
    Look at the frequency response of an electric guitar pickup and you'll see why older designs are so applicable to the kinds of guitars we're discussing. The $3K to a boutique builder is somewhat for build quality but also the tone. The best of them are like a warm embrace.

    When you get into small PA's and powered speakers amplification is different. Also for rigs designed for acoustic guitar though many of those are cost constrained. However, you still can't compare home systems to music performance gear because the latter has to be quite durable and flexible in terms of dispersion.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    I really don't care one way or the other - either one makes my guitar louder which is the point and they both have some sort of EQ built in to alter the tone. Nowadays, it all boils down to whether or not I can lift it into the car. I sound like me, regardless of the equipment I use so I'm easy to please.
    Yea.. I may like my Fender Concert best at home but it's the 35 pound Roland Blues Cube Artist when I play out. And I may go lighter than that soon.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    Look at the frequency response of an electric guitar pickup and you'll see why older designs are so applicable to the kinds of guitars we're discussing. The $3K to a boutique builder is somewhat for build quality but also the tone. The best of them are like a warm embrace.

    When you get into small PA's and powered speakers amplification is different. Also for rigs designed for acoustic guitar though many of those are cost constrained. However, you still can't compare home systems to music performance gear because the latter has to be quite durable and flexible in terms of dispersion.
    Yet, put it in the wrong room, at the wrong volume, outside the so-called "sweet spot" and it will sound awful. Many people, including pros, like to play and record at home. The cost doesn't bother me, so much as the very low utility to cost of the average traditional amp, unless you have the perfect setting to use them. Or you need several of them of different sizes and power to accomodate different rooms, which seems absurdly inefficient.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKA
    The combo of the bluguitar amp 1 and the Streibel archtop sounds fantastic!
    I heard back from several folks on my modern guitar forum and through PM's that it's not a good jazz amp - that it's got a middy nasallyness to the clean tone that can't be dialed out.

    The DV Eric Gales would be perfect if they'd add a gain control to it. It actually sounds great but the preamp distorts too easily. (it's also got a micro tube)

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_d
    Yet, put it in the wrong room, at the wrong volume, outside the so-called "sweet spot" and it will sound awful. Many people, including pros, like to play and record at home. The cost doesn't bother me, so much as the very low utility to cost of the average traditional amp, unless you have the perfect setting to use them. Or you need several of them of different sizes and power to accomodate different rooms, which seems absurdly inefficient.
    An interesting view and you have a point. For me, flexibility is secondary. I use different setups for acoustic and electric and the electric rig only has to do a few things well. Maybe since I've always played saxophone along side guitar, I come at flexibility in tone a bit differently than many modern guitar players.

    What's good is that there are full range speakers and Axe-Fx sorts of things that will drive you nuts with flexibility.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    I really don't care one way or the other - either one makes my guitar louder which is the point and they both have some sort of EQ built in to alter the tone. Nowadays, it all boils down to whether or not I can lift it into the car. I sound like me, regardless of the equipment I use so I'm easy to please.
    I also have a rather pragmatic approach to amps – mostly I plug into what is there and try to make it work or rather work with what what is capable of. I think the discriminating line is more between good and bad then it is between tubes and solid state. As a player and inadmissibly generalising I think that tube amps have more compression – which can make you feel good as you play – while solid state often has a more direct and immediate feel – which can be a good thing, too. I also found out that tube amps often have a kind of enhancing effect (making your tone "shine" more) while solid state amps are often more flat (correct) sounding. If there's enough wattage they feel punchier in the bass quite often – but that may have been just the amps I stumbled upon. Whatever you like better and what inspires you ...

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    if you go to my youtube channel (Jack Zucker
    - YouTube
    ) there are tons of demos of the axefx stuff and kemper with jazz clean tones. The axefx is great but doesn't really sound like a real tube amp
    from a year ago:

    " I love my fractal AX8. I'd never go back to tubes. I can play at *ANY* volume level, utilize FOH if it's there or crank up louder than a 2x4x12 marshall 100 if there's no FOH or I can use a 23lb alto 800w cabinet. It's like having a princeton that can get up to cranked marshall levels and sounds pretty much the same at any volume level other than the typical fletcher-munson thing.

    Plus, with modelers, you're never stuck with just the eq in the amp. If you *DO* run loud enough to experience fletcher-munson, you have many eq options available. "

    Danny W.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    from a year ago:

    " I love my fractal AX8. I'd never go back to tubes. I can play at *ANY* volume level, utilize FOH if it's there or crank up louder than a 2x4x12 marshall 100 if there's no FOH or I can use a 23lb alto 800w cabinet. It's like having a princeton that can get up to cranked marshall levels and sounds pretty much the same at any volume level other than the typical fletcher-munson thing.

    Plus, with modelers, you're never stuck with just the eq in the amp. If you *DO* run loud enough to experience fletcher-munson, you have many eq options available. "

    Danny W.
    What - Is this politics ? Are you accusing me of flip-flopping? lol. I wrote about this transition back to analog months ago. Eight months ago, I went over to Frankie Starr's house and played through a bunch of his fender amps next to my axefx and I was blown away. I had been convincing and fooling myself for 2 years. There was NO COMPARISON. The axefx sounded and felt *NOTHING* like his fender amps. I couldn't sell it fast enough after that! Before I got a couple tube amps, I bought a quilter OD200 and honestly, it's clean tone blew away anything that the axefx could do. One thing that is very apparent and noticeable when you A/B them is the latency from the axefx. The analog amps have a punchy/immediateness to them that at this point is yet to be replicated with modelers - and with the main audience for modelers being heavy metal guys - I doubt they'll sway me anytime soon.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i don't think mesa uses particularly good tubes. The reason to buy from them though is that their tubes don't require amp biasing because they only sell tubes that match the fixed bias in their amps. if you buy better quality tubes (for example, the tung-sol reissues are way better) you might have to bias your amp unless you buy from a dealer who sells tubes that are pre-selected for mesas (and many do)

    my morgan can take any 6V6, 5881, 6L6, EL34, KT66, KT77, etc. I have tried many of the brands out there including the chinese ones, tube doctor, JJ, sovtek and tung-sol reissues. The tung sol reissues are noticably better than any of them for clean jazz tones IMO...
    FWIW the comparison was between Mesa 6L6s and Mesa EL34's. The difference in sound was dramatic.

    On the general subject of SS vs tube, I have liked both. Here are two experiences.

    1) Mesa Boogie Mark III played through a old Yamaha FX box to simulate (badly) Pat Metheny's tone. A guitarist came out of the audience and offered to buy my entire rig.

    2) Crate GFX15 (12 watt SS practice amp that sold new for under $100) on a shelf behind the bandstand and mic'ed with the house PA (no idea of what that was). I think that was the best sound I ever got on a gig.

    Mostly, I just want to get close enough to "my sound" that I can forget about the gear. That can happen with any kind of amp, but not every specific amp. I've used Line6's and the original Lunchbox without being able to get a sound I could stand.

    I'm also aware that there's some psychoacoustics, if I'm using that term correctly. For example, I plug in at the beginning of a gig and absolutely hate my sound -- in the same room as last week, with the same gear. Then, with no real changes it sounds okay to me for the second set. I think it's just a matter of getting accustomed to it.

    So, I end up all over the map with this stuff.