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  1. #1

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    I'm fed up of this instrument being around in jazz. It's like 'I don't have the stones to play an archtop but I got this stupid thing instead of a solid body because I don't want to be judged by my jazz mates.'

    (Larry Carlton is allowed.)





    (this is a joke, BTW, I know the gear forums get angry)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hey it's a gauge 10 archtop

  4. #3

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    LOL.

    I got an Epi 335 Dot as my first "jazz guitar" about 20 years ago, and I had a hard time dialing in a jazz sound. Then I got a Joe Pass, which was much easier.

    That said, a LOT of guys make a 335 sound great. Knowing what I know now, and knowing that 95% of the jazz sound is in the fingers not the guitar, I bet I could make it work.

    I wouldn't mind getting a Sheraton 2. OTOH, a typical 335 with a center block just doesn't float my boat. I have an ES-135 which DOES have a center block, but it is balsa wood and for whatever reason does get a great mellow jazz tone. The body is quite a bit smaller than the 335, which is a plus in my book as well.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    LOL.

    I got an Epi 335 Dot as my first "jazz guitar" about 20 years ago, and I had a hard time dialing in a jazz sound. Then I got a Joe Pass, which was much easier.

    That said, a LOT of guys make a 335 sound great. Knowing what I know now, and knowing that 95% of the jazz sound is in the fingers not the guitar, I bet I could make it work.

    I wouldn't mind getting a Sheraton 2. OTOH, a typical 335 with a center block just doesn't float my boat. I have an ES-135 which DOES have a center block, but it is balsa wood and for whatever reason does get a great mellow jazz tone. The body is quite a bit smaller than the 335, which is a plus in my book as well.
    Hmmmm, you are confusing the purity of my hatred.

    But also the thin line fully hollow guitar?

    I honestly think the key thing about the guitar is it’s versatility coupled with its looks. Tele is equally versatile but doesn’t look like an f hole guitar... I think that’s why I hate it. It’s a guitar that post dates the Les Paul and Strat, it was a self conscious throwback for those afraid of the future at its very inception (pace BB King :-))

    Plenty of great players have played a 335 but there’s this thing going around that contemporary players have to play a 335... it’s wearing off a bit now and all the kids want to sound like Pasquale and play a Trenier anyway.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hmmmm, you are confusing the purity of my hatred.

    But also the thin line fully hollow guitar?

    I honestly think the key thing about the guitar is it’s versatility coupled with its looks. Tele is equally versatile but doesn’t look like an f hole guitar... I think that’s why I hate it. It’s a guitar that post dates the Les Paul and Strat, it was a self conscious throwback for those afraid of the future at its very inception (pace BB King :-))

    Plenty of great players have played a 335 but there’s this thing going around that contemporary players have to play a 335... it’s wearing off a bit now and all the kids want to sound like Pasquale and play a Trenier anyway.
    Man did something bite you?

    I agree, and always love an old-guy rant... are you rehearsing for your 60's?
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  7. #6

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    Fetchez la vache!

    John

  8. #7

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    335


    vs archtop

  9. #8

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    Honestly, I totally agree. If you want to look cool just get a f#*king strat or rg, or sg.

    On the other hand I'm playing one right now so I'm very guilty and a total hypocrite. Lol.
    Last edited by arielcee; 06-04-2019 at 12:30 AM.

  10. #9

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    Sco with his Ibanez though! Does it qualify as 335? You gotta add him to the exceptions list.

    Otherwise, yea, 335 with clean tone, treble rolled off, dreamy reverb- bbbehhhh, kill me now.

    I do like and want Epiphone Casino though, technically it's more 330, right? Awesome looks and sound!

  11. #10

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    Zappa said it well... "Shut up and play yer guitar"

    When will players stop listening with their eyes.
    Regards,

    Gary

  12. #11

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    Too much neck for me, need long arms to reach 1st position....sitting down they really suck.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Man did something bite you?

    I agree, and always love an old-guy rant... are you rehearsing for your 60's?
    I’ve been like this since I was 15

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Sco with his Ibanez though! Does it qualify as 335? You gotta add him to the exceptions list.

    Otherwise, yea, 335 with clean tone, treble rolled off, dreamy reverb- bbbehhhh, kill me now.

    I do like and want Epiphone Casino though, technically it's more 330, right? Awesome looks and sound!
    Haha

    Sco gets a pass. Also he was sounding cool on Tele a couple of years back.

    I think Casinos are kind of cool. I’m over the oasis thing now....

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI View Post
    Zappa said it well... "Shut up and play yer guitar"

    When will players stop listening with their eyes.
    When they stop buying flipping 335s

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    When they stop buying flipping 335s
    A. Not gonna happen.

    B. Nobody cares what you or anyone else plays.

    C. Sell yours.

    D. Case closed.

    What's next, railing about strings that aren't flat wound? Oh crap, I think I'm gonna be sorry for opening that can of worms.

    Gads, at 67 I thought I had some beefs (even joke types) but now I feel better knowing it can get worse :-)
    Regards,

    Gary

  17. #16

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    Let's face it, ES-335s are for pussies. For those who like the idea of playing a late-'50s-style guitar that captures the age but is vastly superior in terms of balance, has a switch that stays out of the way, solves any feedback problems, has tone for days, and is simply the most comfortable instrument Gibson ever made, it's actually a pretty simple choice. I'm glad I made it. Another bonus - some of these have extra-wide necks - mine is @1.72" at the nut, has an ebony board and the rest is mahogany. Jazz heaven in the neck position if you are not looking for that hollow sound.

    Last edited by Hammertone; 06-04-2019 at 03:17 AM.
    "Somebody get me out of this chair." - BOB WILLS
    Hammertone is a registered Hofnerologist.

  18. #17

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    GNAPPI,

    You opened the can...

    I'm sick of people asking "what are the best strings for jazz" and the knee jerk reaction is "Thomastik! Get the Swings, Bebops, or the Bensons"

    I'm not gonna use "hate", but I really dislike Thomastiks. They sound dead to my ears. Not everyone likes em either. Can we stop knee jerk recommending them, jazz guitar world at large (not just here--but jazz guitar world at large)? Can we also stop talking about flat wounds like they are the end all be all?

    He he, I'm ranting now. But I think I'll get more flack than Chris '77.

    I agree with Christian about the 335. I go to a lot of jam sessions--that's how I play "out" because I haven't been in a band since high school. People love the 335. Heck, I thought of getting one myself--a clone, that is. But then again, I'm more of a one guitar kinda guy. It's really limiting, I know. But the perk is that I really know that guitar--it's like a close friend.

    All that said, I'm glad that I'm back on JGF. I miss these conversations. And I'm getting more grays as we speak. Is it age, or is it the stress of parenthood? You tell me

  19. #18

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    I suppose anything (semi)hollow became obsolete once the solid body was invented. Solids are the most purely electric instruments, so if you want to play an electric guitar, there's no need to bring those throwback hollow things.

    What I'd really like to see is a moratorium on the modern reverb/delay sound. Everybody's been playing in elevator shafts and bathrooms for the past 10 years.

  20. #19

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    Whenever I come across 335 style guitar the guy says: ''it is not only fio jazz you know.. this is what I like it for... archtops are for jazz only and this is not only for jazz.''


    It seems like they pass this motto each when they sell the guitar over...

  21. #20

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    Play a Gretsch. That will sort it out.

    I get sick of th jazz tone too (and players who all want to sound like joe pass. Love joe. But he did it already.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #21

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    Call for moratorium on 335s-8ad0747d74cb085ad15e272a81993af0-jpg
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  23. #22

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    When I grew up and started getting into Jazz in general (from ca. 1974) all I had was pictures in the few magazines I could get my hands on (the occasional Downbeat, Guitar Player was unobtainium), the backs of album covers and the records/radio to listen to. I found BB King, Pass, Martino, Benson, Metheny, Sco, Wes, Carlton, Abercrombie, Hall, Burrell, all these giants playing different guitars and having a personal and identifiable stye and sound and in the interviews I read their advice to young players : go find your own voice. It's hard work, takes a long time and maybe you'll never get there but it's essential in art....
    The internet/information revolution changed all that. Cloning is everywhere and whether that's good or bad remains to be seen -

    As for the percieved ubiquitous ES-335 with reverb and delay : it's different over here in Europe and I see a many more older/cheaper archtops in the hands of the young guys along with lots of Eastman, Ibanez, Godin and Teles are everywhere.

  24. #23

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    I play a 335 (Eastman clone) lightly amplified, mainly because I play late in the evening and my acoustic would be too loud. Being a 16" size it works great seating. I'm much more frustrated by the over-reliance on amplifiers in jazz guitar and the fact that so few make the effort to learn to play acoustically. On the other hand when I hear Kenny Burrell's tone, it's apparent he can play acoustic too. Hopefully young artists like Lage and Grasso will get things moving.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI View Post
    A. Not gonna happen.

    B. Nobody cares what you or anyone else plays.

    C. Sell yours.

    D. Case closed.

    What's next, railing about strings that aren't flat wound? Oh crap, I think I'm gonna be sorry for opening that can of worms.

    Gads, at 67 I thought I had some beefs (even joke types) but now I feel better knowing it can get worse :-)
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  26. #25

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    how about a moratorium on making me google the definition of words
    White belt
    My Youtube

  27. #26

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    Anyone remember when Christian called 335 "horrible Mickey Mouse things?" haha that shit killed me
    White belt
    My Youtube

  28. #27

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  29. #28

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    I’m sitting here looking at my white Seventy Seven Rubato Jazz (come on Christian, it’s got JAZZ in the NAME, fer crissakes) with a tear rolling down my cheek. Maybe it doesn’t count, though, because it has a spruce top and (I think, I hope) a hollow block.

  30. #29

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  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
    When I grew up and started getting into Jazz in general (from ca. 1974) all I had was pictures in the few magazines I could get my hands on (the occasional Downbeat, Guitar Player was unobtainium), the backs of album covers and the records/radio to listen to. I found BB King, Pass, Martino, Benson, Metheny, Sco, Wes, Carlton, Abercrombie, Hall, Burrell, all these giants playing different guitars and having a personal and identifiable stye and sound and in the interviews I read their advice to young players : go find your own voice. It's hard work, takes a long time and maybe you'll never get there but it's essential in art....
    The internet/information revolution changed all that. Cloning is everywhere and whether that's good or bad remains to be seen -

    As for the percieved ubiquitous ES-335 with reverb and delay : it's different over here in Europe and I see a many more older/cheaper archtops in the hands of the young guys along with lots of Eastman, Ibanez, Godin and Teles are everywhere.
    Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’

    Show off

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Whenever I come across 335 style guitar the guy says: ''it is not only fio jazz you know.. this is what I like it for... archtops are for jazz only and this is not only for jazz.''


    It seems like they pass this motto each when they sell the guitar over...
    They should try plugging a 175 into a drive pedal.

    Sounds amazing.

  33. #32

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    I don't give a shit what they're playing as long as they swing. They could be playing a Washburn Dime Slime for all I care. Hell, I play a Strat for most of my jazz sessions. And I DO own an archtop, which I adore. But the Strat is home for me and I can think less about the guitar and more about the playing.
    On the Turntable: Joe Morris - Colorfield, Albert Ayler - The Hilversum Session
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  34. #33

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    We should all make a donation to a fund so Christian will be able to afford a 335 at last....because I think that's the real problem here: sour grapes....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A long journey starts with the first step...and although I have long forgotten about my destination I'm still enjoying the journey.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’

    Show off

    I believe he uses a little reverb. Just a touch, but his sound is usually not 100% dry, if my ears are working. No delay, though.


  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’ Show off
    I feel kind of sorry for him. I don't know if he drank the Kool-Aid, or simply never experienced the sound of a good carved archtop guitar, but the poor guy doesn't know what he's missing.
    "Somebody get me out of this chair." - BOB WILLS
    Hammertone is a registered Hofnerologist.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by jorgemg1984 View Post
    I believe he uses a little reverb. Just a touch, but his sound is usually not 100% dry, if my ears are working. No delay, though.

    That might be post production. Live his sound seems to be quite dry....

    Obviously sometimes there’s a bit more reverb than you might hear live. But I think with AR it seems like the aesthetic is to that it’s not heard by the audience so much.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone View Post
    I feel kind of sorry for him. I don't know if he drank the Kool-Aid, or simply never experienced the sound of a good carved archtop guitar, but the poor guy doesn't know what he's missing.
    I'm sure he's really broken up about it in between gigs with Chris Potter and Nate Smith...
    On the Turntable: Joe Morris - Colorfield, Albert Ayler - The Hilversum Session
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Plenty of great players have played a 335 but there’s this thing going around that contemporary players have to play a 335... it’s wearing off a bit now and all the kids want to sound like Pasquale and play a Trenier anyway.
    Yeah, it's terrible this thing going around of people playing the guitars they like for reasons they find completely valid. Shame on them. It really is tragic that John Hart, Dave Stryker, Steve Kahn, Pete McCann, Adam Rogers, Ben Monder, John Scofield (despite having Christian's permission), and who knows how many others all fail to grasp that it's Christian's world and he just lets us use it. Oh, the humanity!

    John

  40. #39

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    Ahh, commerce. When I asked Ed Bickert about why he used his tele instead a lovely carved archtop guitar, he said "because it's easier." Ed viewed his guitar playing as a job. It certainly makes things easier. In Ed's case, the Tele didn't even require a case. Most convenient. However, I'm not speaking of expediency, or practicality, but of what happens after all the dime-dancing is through, and the salubrious effects of great tone on one's soul.
    "Somebody get me out of this chair." - BOB WILLS
    Hammertone is a registered Hofnerologist.

  41. #40

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    " ....the salubrious effects of great tone on one's soul." Love that !!!!

  42. #41

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    My preference is a 175 with flats. I am sure a few guys would want a moratorium on that....
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    My preference is a 175 with flats. I am sure a few guys would want a moratorium on that....
    Unfortunately Gibson already called a moratorium on them in 2017.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    John Scofield (despite having Christian's permission)
    I did not give Sco permission. I just agreed to look the other way.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Unfortunately Gibson already called a moratorium on them in 2017.
    Squeezed out by the 335. Cuckoo in the nest.

  46. #45

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    Adam Rogers' sounds good, to me. He sure does, however, sound like a guy playing a ES-335 into an amp--with little or no coloration, other than a pinch of reverb.

    The 335 is such a comfortable guitar to play that Rogers may not warm up to anything else. Still, like Hammertone, I wonder how Rogers would respond if you dropped a L-5CES into his lap? Carved body archtops have an extra, woody warmth to their sound that is lacking in either a semi-acoustic or a solid-body guitar. I play all three regularly and can attest to this, firsthand.

    I really enjoy playing a 335 (or clone). For jazz, however, the 335, Tele, etc., is just a convenient substitute for the real deal--i.e., a full, carved-body, archtop guitar.

  47. #46

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    I've just taken up jazz after playing classical guitar for some time. I read a lot of posts here and treated myself to a Gibson ES335 which I read was good for Jazz and also for other types of music.

    It's sounding great for jazz and I'm looking forward to playing the bagpipes with it when my interest in jazz wanes. I'm sure an archtop wouldn't be so flexible.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone View Post
    Adam Rogers' sounds good, to me. He sure does, however, sound like a guy playing a ES-335 into an amp--with little or no coloration, other than a pinch of reverb.

    The 335 is such a comfortable guitar to play that Rogers may not warm up to anything else. Still, like Hammertone, I wonder how Rogers would respond if you dropped a L-5CES into his lap? Carved body archtops have an extra, woody warmth to their sound that is lacking in either a semi-acoustic or a solid-body guitar. I play all three regularly and can attest to this, firsthand.

    I really enjoy playing a 335 (or clone). For jazz, however, the 335, Tele, etc., is just a convenient substitute for the real deal--i.e., a full, carved-body, archtop guitar.

    I totally get what you're saying here, but maybe Adam isn't looking for extra, woody warmth in his guitar. Maybe he plays a 335 because that's the sound he likes. Not everyone is search for the same, singular jazz tone of the Kenny Burrell variety.

    Also, I'd be pretty surprised if he'd never played an archtop before, even if just trying one out or using another player's guitar. Hell, even I've played an L-5 before and I'm a mere mortal.
    On the Turntable: Joe Morris - Colorfield, Albert Ayler - The Hilversum Session
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  49. #48

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    I used to have an Epiphone dot. I didn't like it compared to my other guitars and sold it. Since then my only association with ES 335's is that I named my cat after BB King's 335.
    In the hopes of preventing this thread from getting rained on with pet photos, I'll refrain from attaching her photo here.

  50. #49

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    Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

    Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

    Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

    So....this suggests the importance of

    A E S T H E T I C S

    To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

    OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

    Just so we are clear on how this operates.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

    Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

    Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

    So....this suggests the importance of

    A E S T H E T I C S

    To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

    OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

    Just so we are clear on how this operates.
    This is my favorite post of the day, maybe of the week.
    On the Turntable: Joe Morris - Colorfield, Albert Ayler - The Hilversum Session
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II