Call for moratorium on 335s

[Hammertone]

I totally get what you're saying here, but maybe Adam isn't looking for extra, woody warmth in his guitar. Maybe he plays a 335 because that's the sound he likes. Not everyone is search for the same, singular jazz tone of the Kenny Burrell variety.
Also, I'd be pretty surprised if he'd never played an archtop before, even if just trying one out or using another player's guitar. Hell, even I've played an L-5 before and I'm a mere mortal.

All true, which is why I'm concerned for his soul.

[lawson-stone]

I can't help it... I still secretly lust for a Gibson ES330.

Even an Epiphone Elitist Casino, in a pinch.

Pray for me.

[rmpmcdermott]

All true, which is why I'm concerned for his soul.

Touche!

[christianm77]

I can't help it... I still secretly lust for a Gibson ES330.

P90s.

You are forgiven

[jorgemg1984]

That might be post production. Live his sound seems to be quite dry....

Obviously sometimes there’s a bit more reverb than you might hear live. But I think with AR it seems like the aesthetic is to that it’s not heard by the audience so much.

Never saw him live, but it doesn't sound dry. And he does list lots of gear on his website

adamrogersmusic.com

He does mentior using spring reverb, so not post production.

I'm not sure if you're serious or just have too much free time, but anyway - a Les Paul or a 335, given the same setup, will probably yeld similar sonic results. But, something that people forget on forums all the time, they will feel completely different. I had a Les Paul with heavy strings and it was hell to play it... a 335 can hang 12s much more easily. Also, for loud live situations, and archtop can be tough (feedback and cutting trough the mix) - I've learned to deal with because I can't bond with 335s or solid bodies, but it's tough. So, despite not enojoying 335s, I can see why people use them besides looking good on stage.

[christianm77]

It's sounding great for jazz and I'm looking forward to playing the bagpipes with it when my interest in jazz wanes. I'm sure an archtop wouldn't be so flexible.

I’m not sure if I quite understand this post

[lawson-stone]

I’m not sure if I quite understand this post

That might not be an altogether disadvantageous position in which to find yourself.

[lawson-stone]

P90s.

You are forgiven

It's as if a great load just lifted from off my weary shoulders!

[christianm77]

Never saw him live, but it doesn't sound dry. And he does list lots of gear on his website

adamrogersmusic.com

He does mentior using spring reverb, so not post production.

I think what I am trying to say is that the reverb is more ‘musical glue’ than a feature of his sound per se.... it’s like with many players a long train delay even mixed quite low is quite an important tonal characteristic.

When I’ve seen AR live on both 335 and Tele I’ve never been aware of the ambience on the amp. It may well be there, but in context with the band you don’t really hear it. On vids too.

I'm not sure if you're serious or just have too much free time, but anyway - a Les Paul or a 335, given the same setup, will probably yeld similar sonic results. But, something that people forget on forums all the time, they will feel completely different. I had a Les Paul with heavy strings and it was hell to play it... a 335 can hang 12s much more easily. Also, for loud live situations, and archtop can be tough (feedback and cutting trough the mix) - I've learned to deal with because I can't bond with 335s or solid bodies, but it's tough. So, despite not enojoying 335s, I can see why people use them besides looking good on stage.

They don’t look good on stage.

Not even when they are accompanied with a woolly hat.

[christianm77]

My wife says I am what is wrong with the internet.

[John A.]

I suppose anything (semi)hollow became obsolete once the solid body was invented. Solids are the most purely electric instruments, so if you want to play an electric guitar, there's no need to bring those throwback hollow things.

What I'd really like to see is a moratorium on the modern reverb/delay sound. Everybody's been playing in elevator shafts and bathrooms for the past 10 years.

Solids were invented before semi-hollows.

John

[Stringswinger]

Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

So....this suggests the importance of

A E S T H E T I C S

To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

Just so we are clear on how this operates.

I totally agree about the Les Paul Studio. I use mine on many gigs (when I an not playing one of my 175's). I have owned many 335s, Teles, Strats and other semi hollows and IMO, the Les Paul Studio is the best of the bunch for jazz. Mine is a 2017 Lest Paul Studio T. It is strung with TI 12 flats and I mostly use it through a Henriksen Blu. The 490R Pickup sounds great and the weight relieved body means the sub 8 pound solid body guitar is comfy and has all the sustain one would ever want. Often when I bring it out on gigs where the other guys have not heard it, they look alarmed at the beginning of the gig and end up telling me how great my rig sounded. I bought it for under $900 from a dealer who lost his Gibson franchise. It was a true floor model, but other than some pickguard scratching, it was pretty much a mint condition guitar.

After owning many 335's, I determined that I do not like their nasal tone nor do I like the Mickey Mouse ears look.

I will own my Les Paul Studio till the end.

[christianm77]

What I'd really like to see is a moratorium on the modern reverb/delay sound. Everybody's been playing in elevator shafts and bathrooms for the past 10 years.

Damn you’ve been following my gigging schedule closely.

[Greentone]

For the last spell, I've had roundwound tens on my Polytone Improv II (Tommy Gumina's take on the Gibson ES-345 w/o Varitone). I replaced my Gibson ES-335 with this Polytone a couple of years ago (thanks, Hammertone)--I had wanted an Improv II since 1980.

Years ago, I kept my 335 and a first-year issue tweed Fender Pro Junior around as my "rock" rig. It, too, had tens and just scorched through the little Pro Jr. Later on, I started playing some jazz dates on the 335 and ended up restringing it with TI Swing 11-47 strings. I sold the 335 to help finance my purchase of a big archtop.

The Improv filled the void left by that sale. There are some differences, however, The center block in the Improv is mahogany. Never seen that before. Tone is nice. Sustain, too.

Anyway, today I strung up the Improv with Chromes 11-50. Stiffer than the TI, but I am noticing something most unusual, too. The Improv II is getting a definite "thunk" with these strings, very reminiscent of my old ES-175. I cannot explain it, but for goodness' sake let's hope this doesn't go away any time soon.

Meanwhile, I'm _out_ on the moratorium for 335/335-like guitars. It was my last guitar set up for rock. Now that it's strung properly, it's a different beast.

[christianm77]

I totally agree about the Les Paul Studio. I use mine on many gigs (when I an not playing one of my 175's). I have owned many 335s, Teles, Strats and other semi hollows and IMO, the Les Paul Studio is the best of the bunch for jazz. Mine is a 2017 Lest Paul Studio T. It is strung with TI 12 flats and I mostly use it through a Henriksen Blu. The 490R Pickup sounds great and the weight relieved body means the sub 8 pound solid body guitar is comfy and has all the sustain one would ever want. Often when I bring it out on gigs where the other guys have not heard it, they look alarmed at the beginning of the gig and end up telling me how great my rig sounded. I bought it for under $900 from a dealer who lost his Gibson franchise. It was a true floor model, but other than some pickguard scratching, it was pretty much a mint condition guitar.

After owning many 335's, I determined that I do not like their nasal tone nor do I like the Mickey Mouse ears look.

I will own my Les Paul Studio till the end.

Yeah in seriousness (yes there are two registers to my interactions here o angry 335 mob of the internet wielding flaming torches and pitchforks, see the last line of the OP) I find that every 335 I’ve ever tried requires a savage cut on the treble control, which is weirdly not a problem I’ve ever had with neck position on a tele.

It’s quite a twangy guitar, all told.

Also the body shape I find very alien. The excellent top fret access is a plus far and beyond any of the other guitars I play... but I find it quite weird. Could get used to it, but I’d have to love the sound. And I don’t.

OTOH someone handed me a LP and I felt immediately comfortable. (Studio is good because with an LP you have the LP rock and roll baggage, and I can’t rock a top hat either.)

Thing sounded awesome too. Someone had painted it bright green. That was less awesome. Gauge .11 rounds, good to go. I was really surprised.

[John A.]

Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

So....this suggests the importance of

A E S T H E T I C S

To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

Just so we are clear on how this operates.

Not exactly blind tests, but I have kind approximated this. A good friend of mine has both a 335 and LP, and we've done a lot of recording together (tons of jazz standards, and a bunch of more blues/rock/fusion oriented original music). Listening back to old mixes, I'm often unsure of which he was playing. But that's also because he tries to get the same sound out of both. Plus it's him playing, and I hear him more than I hear the guitar (he has other guitars that he also sounds pretty much the same on). I have a D'Angelico semi-hollow, and I used to have a LP, but it was an unusual variant - LP Studio DC, which has a 24 fret neck. The neck pickup on that sounds very different from my D'A (or a 335, or LP Standard), and I can easily tell it on recordings.

Gaslight away.

John

[ugarte]

Let's face it, ES-335s are for pussies.

. . .with qualification

I'm pretty sure no one ever called Freddie King a pussy without a trip to the dentist afterwards (although that was possibly a 355).

[Greentone]

I have a jazz gig Friday. I think I will use the Polytone Improv II.

[entresz]

I too don't get the ES335 thing.

To my ears there is very little difference in amplified sound between a 335 and a Les Paul for example.
My Les Paul Recording with flatwounds sounds a lot more hollow than the 335s I've heard.

One guy who gets a gorgeous sound from a 335 style guitar (it's actually a laminated brazilian rosewood ES355 with low impedance pickups ala the Les Paul Professional/Personal/Recording) is Tony Motolla - sublime! Would he have sounded the same with a Les Paul with the same pickups? Likely.

[Greentone]

entresz,

+1 Agree. Tony Mottola's 1969 Rosewood ES-355 with lo-impedance pickups was gorgeous looking and sounding. Rudy's had it for sale a while back for about $40K. It sold, but I don't know what the final price was. I would have loved to have gotten that one.

[jorgemg1984]

I think what I am trying to say is that the reverb is more ‘musical glue’ than a feature of his sound per se.... it’s like with many players a long train delay even mixed quite low is quite an important tonal characteristic.

When I’ve seen AR live on both 335 and Tele I’ve never been aware of the ambience on the amp. It may well be there, but in context with the band you don’t really hear it. On vids too.



They don’t look good on stage.

Not even when they are accompanied with a woolly hat.

OK, it's the "too much free time" option.

[JGinNJ]

I think Emily Remler sounded great on her (brother's) 335.

I had a vintage Guild Starfire V (with a Bigsby!) for decades. Never could quite get the sound I wanted out of it, but a blues playing friend of mine picked it up one day and made it howl. When I finally got a full hollow archtop (yeah, a Joe pass emporer) i realized what i'd been missing. Now I like 'em even bigger.

[WillMbCdn5]

Thank you so much for this thread I was going to get rid of my Gibson Super 300 in favor of upgrading to the much higher numbered Gibson 335 . I think I'll hold off for the Super 335 !!!

Will

[Greentone]

Never sell a Super 300. Those things are awesome guitars.

[Howzabopping]

Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

Maybe something like this?

[christianm77]

OK, it's the "too much free time" option.

335 players are very serious, busy and important people with no time for silliness.

[JCat]

The Gibson SG is the best kept secret in Jazz. Often used under cover in the studio, but seldom seen on stage. Some would even claim that every humbucker guitar sound about the same when laying down a track and that things like amps, strings and picks tend to be part of the equation.

It's a visual thing, much like haircut and shoes. One has to respect the uniform; always wear a Stetson hat and a pair of cowboy boots when you sling a Telecaster.

The 335 is a thing of beauty that a man likes to caress. No f-holes, no jazz.

(Some would claim that the 335 has better fret access than a regular archtop, almost as good as the SG, but we all know this is just bells and whistles for less orthodox players that probably have a skewed definition of Jazz.)

[cosmic gumbo]

Actually a 339 gives that same neck access as a 335, but in a more reasonable size...and price.

[christianm77]

The Gibson SG is the best kept secret in Jazz. Often used under cover in the studio, but seldom seen on stage. Some would even claim that every humbucker guitar sound about the same when laying down a track and that things like amps, strings and picks tend to be part of the equation.

It's a visual thing, much like haircut and shoes. One has to respect the uniform; always wear a Stetson hat and a pair of cowboy boots when you sling a Telecaster.

The 335 is a thing of beauty that a man likes to caress. No f-holes, no jazz.

(Some would claim that the 335 has better fret access than a regular archtop, almost as good as the SG, but we all know this is just bells and whistles for less orthodox players that probably have a skewed definition of Jazz.)

I always kinda fancied an SG actually. Maybe it’s time ....

Literally no one plays an SG around these parts....

I’ll overlook your talk about caressing f holes and so on, and made me feel a bit grubby

[christianm77]

I think Emily Remler sounded great on her (brother's) 335.

I had a vintage Guild Starfire V (with a Bigsby!) for decades. Never could quite get the sound I wanted out of it, but a blues playing friend of mine picked it up one day and made it howl. When I finally got a full hollow archtop (yeah, a Joe pass emporer) i realized what i'd been missing. Now I like 'em even bigger.

To be serious again for a moment I think Remler said that the 335 was the right size for her. I think a lot of women players find archtops too big. In Emily’s case she might have originally wanted the L5 tone, but the 335 became pretty iconic for her...

[TOMMO]

To be serious again for a moment I think Remler said that the 335 was the right size for her. I think a lot of women players find archtops too big. In Emily’s case she might have originally wanted the L5 tone, but the 335 became pretty iconic for her...

Call me a pedant but I think her's was an ES 330 outfitted with humbuckers....







Also found this image:


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/...re-id494370916

[Lobomov]

To be serious again for a moment I think Remler said that the 335 was the right size for her. I think a lot of women players find archtops too big. In Emily’s case she might have originally wanted the L5 tone, but the 335 became pretty iconic for her...

Modified 330, where the P90s where replaced with humbuckers


Are we hating on the huge flat Mickey Mouse shape no matter the guitar or are the hollow 330 types ok despite not having P90?

(EDIT: TOMMO beat me to it)

[christianm77]

Modified 330, where the P90s where replaced with humbuckers


Are we hating on the huge flat Mickey Mouse shape no matter the guitar or are the hollow 330 types ok despite not having P90?

(EDIT: TOMMO beat me to it)

It’s more a generic antipathy aimed towards those who play them in a jazz context, especially if they bounce up and down as they play and wear hats of any kind.*

The instrument itself is perfectly acceptable if you play funk or blues. Or the correct sort of jazz even. Or are sco. Or Adam Rogers. Or are a woman.

Perfectly logical.

* Kurt is allowed, you are not.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't have a problem with the 335, but I must say, semi-hollows in general, I've just never bonded with one.

I'd rather play my tele or a fully hollow guitar.

[christianm77]

I totally agree about the Les Paul Studio. I use mine on many gigs (when I an not playing one of my 175's). I have owned many 335s, Teles, Strats and other semi hollows and IMO, the Les Paul Studio is the best of the bunch for jazz. Mine is a 2017 Lest Paul Studio T. It is strung with TI 12 flats and I mostly use it through a Henriksen Blu. The 490R Pickup sounds great and the weight relieved body means the sub 8 pound solid body guitar is comfy and has all the sustain one would ever want. Often when I bring it out on gigs where the other guys have not heard it, they look alarmed at the beginning of the gig and end up telling me how great my rig sounded.

You know I am convinced this is the main force driving 335 sales to jazzers. In all seriousness.

There is some value in avoiding 20-30 minute conversations with recreational guitar purchasers after gigs about how a telecaster is an unusual choice for a jazzer. I can only imagine it’s even more the case with a guitar that is actually an unusual choice.

And then there are your bandmates, who seem to think that the sound of an electric guitar is governed by its shape and colour.

Dave Cliff liked rocking up to gigs with a Fender Bullitt (or whatever they are called.) in this case I think they bit their tongues for a number of reasons.

Obviously there are limits. A Flying V has a great tone for jazz, but I don’t think we can expect even enlightened horn players to let that one go.

It’s like people look at the f holes and think, hmmm this player isn’t a filthy rock and roller, there’s going to be some tasteful sounds here. Despite that the f holes on a 335 basically don’t do anything.

Summary: it’s a bogus fraudulent mouse guitar designed to appease fools and I’m not having it.

The shape is no accident.

(Btw I don’t think *anyone’s* fooled by the tele thinline.)

[Tal_175]

To me ES 335's have a very characteristic thunk different than ES 175. It comes out especially when on bridge pickup and lightly overdriven. Like overdriven nasal, thunk. No other guitar has it but I'm not sure if I like that sound:
Examples:

Very apparent here at 1:02 (and later during the solo): (well I actually like it there)

Also here starts at * 2:00 *

[callouscallus]

Yeah cuz when i think of a guy that has a serious set of stones its the soft spoken spoken english dude Christianm77

[christianm77]

Yeah cuz when i think of a guy that has a serious set of stones its the soft spoken spoken english dude Christianm77

They are as large as a man’s head. Each.

[christianm77]

Also haven’t you heard that I’m a young thruster?

[Stringswinger]

You know I am convinced this is the main force driving 335 sales to jazzers. In all seriousness.

There is some value in avoiding 20-30 minute conversations with recreational guitar purchasers after gigs about how a telecaster is an unusual choice for a jazzer. I can only imagine it’s even more the case with a guitar that is actually an unusual choice.

And then there are your bandmates, who seem to think that the sound of an electric guitar is governed by its shape and colour.

Dave Cliff liked rocking up to gigs with a Fender Bullitt (or whatever they are called.) in this case I think they bit their tongues for a number of reasons.

Obviously there are limits. A Flying V has a great tone for jazz, but I don’t think we can expect even enlightened horn players to let that one go.

It’s like people look at the f holes and think, hmmm this player isn’t a filthy rock and roller, there’s going to be some tasteful sounds here. Despite that the f holes on a 335 basically don’t do anything.

Summary: it’s a bogus fraudulent mouse guitar designed to appease fools and I’m not having it.

The shape is no accident.

(Btw I don’t think *anyone’s* fooled by the tele thinline.)

The Les Paul, while a great jazz guitar that was designed as a jazz guitar, sold poorly to jazz guitarists in the 50's. So Ted McCarty and his crew came out with the 335 (if at first you don't succeed.......). Early on, the guys whose livings (profits?) depended on it, figured out how important f holes were to jazz guitarists.

As much as I like my Les Paul, my Strat and my classical, my favorite guitars do have F holes. I admit, I tried to like the 335. I prefer the Les Paul. And I enjoy the look of anxiety that my Lester sometimes affects my fellow musicians when I pull it out on a bandstand. People in the audience could care less.

[John A.]

You know I am convinced this is the main force driving 335 sales to jazzers. In all seriousness.

There is some value in avoiding 20-30 minute conversations with recreational guitar purchasers after gigs about how a telecaster is an unusual choice for a jazzer. I can only imagine it’s even more the case with a guitar that is actually an unusual choice.

And then there are your bandmates, who seem to think that the sound of an electric guitar is governed by its shape and colour.

Dave Cliff liked rocking up to gigs with a Fender Bullitt (or whatever they are called.) in this case I think they bit their tongues for a number of reasons.

Obviously there are limits. A Flying V has a great tone for jazz, but I don’t think we can expect even enlightened horn players to let that one go.

It’s like people look at the f holes and think, hmmm this player isn’t a filthy rock and roller, there’s going to be some tasteful sounds here. Despite that the f holes on a 335 basically don’t do anything.

Summary: it’s a bogus fraudulent mouse guitar designed to appease fools and I’m not having it.

The shape is no accident.

(Btw I don’t think *anyone’s* fooled by the tele thinline.)

Do you guys actually experience people giving you the stink-eye for playing the wrong guitar?

John

[christianm77]

The Les Paul, while a great jazz guitar that was designed as a jazz guitar, sold poorly to jazz guitarists in the 50's. So Ted McCarty and his crew came out with the 335 (if at first you don't succeed.......). Early on, the guys whose livings (profits?) depended on it, figured out how important f holes were to jazz guitarists.

As much as I like my Les Paul, my Strat and my classical, my favorite guitars do have F holes. I admit, I tried to like the 335. I prefer the Les Paul. And I enjoy the look of anxiety that my Lester sometimes affects my fellow musicians when I pull it out on a bandstand. People in the audience could care less.

Haha. Except for that one guitar guy.

The one guy who comes up to look at my pedalboard in the break and looks *really* disappointed.

He’d notice.

Les Paul with f holes tho. This is a thing I actually like aesthetically. I tried one too and we got on great.

[Stringswinger]

Do you guys actually experience people giving you the stink-eye for playing the wrong guitar?

John

If cats do not know you and see you pull out a Lester on a jazz gig, I think they (by experience) can be concerned that:

A. You are a fusion player and will be too loud and play too many notes or;

B. You are a rock/blues player and every solo is going to be a bunch of pentatonic licks whether they fit or not.

I am doing my part to dispel those myths.

[Stringswinger]

Haha. Except for that one guitar guy.

The one guy who comes up to look at my pedalboard in the break and looks *really* disappointed.

He’d notice.

Les Paul with f holes tho. This is a thing I actually like aesthetically. I tried one too and we got on great.

Actually, I get more guitar guys (and others) come up to talk to me when I play the Lester than when I play one of my 175's. Everyone has seen a Lester (thank you Jimmy Page) but f hole archtops are rare birds in the guitar world these days. And that is why Gibson, the company who invented them has pretty much abandoned them.

[Jonathan0996]

You use whatever tools work for you. The rest is conversation.

[Hammertone]

... Obviously there are limits. A Flying V has a great tone for jazz, but I don’t think we can expect even enlightened horn players to let that one go. ...

V's are terrible for jazz. Explorers, on the other hand, REWL for jazz.

[Stringswinger]

V's are terrible for jazz. Explorers, on the other hand, REWL for jazz.

Having owned a V and an Explorer, I would say they are equally good for jazz. If you like the way they look, go for it. Just be sure you do not forget your strap.

[John A.]

If cats do not know you and see you pull out a Lester on a jazz gig, I think they (by experience) can be concerned that:

A. You are a fusion player and will be too loud and play too many notes or;

B. You are a rock/blues player and every solo is going to be a bunch of pentatonic licks whether they fit or not.

I am doing my part to dispel those myths.

With the caveat that I'm not a busy working pro (just do occasional gigs of various kinds of music), not my experience at all. I've never had anyone care one way or another about what I play, beyond other guitar players nerding out, or non-guitar players liking the way a guitar looks (for some reason, my Godin Kingpin draws wolf whistles).

John

[mr. beaumont]

(for some reason, my Godin Kingpin draws wolf whistles).

John

Cuz they're SEXY.



That's mine posing on my equally hawt Ford Focus.

Sorry ladies, I'm taken.

[Hammertone]

Cuz they're SEXY.
That's mine posing on my equally hawt Ford Focus.
Sorry ladies, I'm taken.

I thought you drove a Pacer.
My Gremlin is in the shop. Can't get the smell of creamed corn out, dammit.
In the meantime, I drive a fancy-ass, hyooge (well, technically, it's classified as "mid-sized", but it's got manly body-on-frame construction, not that effete uni-body shit that you can't actually take off-road) SUV, because it attracts pussy like you wouldn't believe: